Israel vs Palestinians

#18,201
#18,201
n_huffhines said:
I'm not sure "baits" is the right word, and I'm not sure anything is pre-planned. It doesn't have to be. IDF can just let things happen, and it falls into the best interest of the powers that be. All they have to do is keep defending Israel and maintaining the status quo and that's enough to "bait" Palestinians. A Palestinian kid throws rocks at an Israeli troop. Israeli troop kills kid. Palestinians have one more reason to hate Israel. This happened 30 times last year in the West Bank alone (meaning death of Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli soldiers). It's a tinder box. We think Hamas attacked for no reason out of nowhere. We don't actually know what's happening. Imagine how Americans would feel about 30 dead kids at the hands of who we see as occupiers.
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What do you think the short and long term result would be if palestianians followed a course of non violence? Would there be peace? Would Israel push them out?

What do you think the short and long term result would be if Israel followed a course of non violence?
Would there be peace? Would palestinians push them out?
 
#18,202
#18,202
McDad said:
What do you think the short and long term result would be if palestianians followed a course of non violence? Would there be peace? Would Israel push them out?

What do you think the short and long term result would be if Israel followed a course of non violence?
Would there be peace? Would palestinians push them out?
Click to expand...

Possibly, but Israel has terrorists who don't forget too, and that's been a part of the problem. This happened during the initial phase of the aforementioned Oslo peace process. Hamas didn't accept it, and kept running operations. They only targeted military objectives. After the massacre, Hamas radicalized further and started indiscriminately going after civilians.

en.wikipedia.org

Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Not exactly sure what you mean by "push them out" but I think my answer is that Israel holds all the power so I don't know why they would push them out.

If Israel followed a course of non-violence that would mean a 2-state solution, which is probably the best way to get Palestinians to be peaceful, but again, you run into the same problem of some people not forgetting and you might have some bad actors that stir things up again. Yes, they would likely push them out if they had the might because they view them as oppressors. They don't have the might.

But these questions/answers seem to be delving into who is right and who is wrong, or who is less evil or more pure of heart, or however you want to frame it...to be clear on my position, I'm only interested in results and making things better. I do not care about who is more wrong.
 
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#18,203
#18,203
n_huffhines said:
Possibly, but Israel has terrorists who don't forget too, and that's been a part of the problem. This happened during the initial phase of the aforementioned Oslo peace process. Hamas didn't accept it, and kept running operations. They only targeted military objectives. After the massacre, Hamas radicalized further and started indiscriminately going after civilians.

en.wikipedia.org

Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Not exactly sure what you mean by "push them out" but I think my answer is that Israel holds all the power so I don't know why they would push them out.

If Israel followed a course of non-violence that would mean a 2-state solution, which is probably the best way to get Palestinians to be peaceful, but again, you run into the same problem of some people not forgetting and you might have some bad actors that stir things up again. Yes, they would likely push them out if they had the might because they view them as oppressors. They don't have the might.

But these questions/answers seem to be delving into who is right and who is wrong, or who is less evil or more pure of heart, or however you want to frame it...I'm only interested in results and making things better. I do not care about who is more wrong.
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I am really not gunning for a right wrong convo. Sincerely trying to understand how others see things.

if a 2 state solution was agreed to by both, how long would the end of organized violence (not terrorist splinter groups or lone bad actors) last?
 
#18,204
#18,204
McDad said:
I am really not gunning for a right wrong convo. Sincerely trying to understand how others see things.

if a 2 state solution was agreed to by both, how long would the end of organized violence (not terrorist splinter groups or lone bad actors) last?
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All I can say is that we give ourselves a better chance at meaningful and lasting peace if we come to some sort of solution that is more agreeable to Palestinians. That's probably a 2-state solution, but I'm open to others. Not sure Palestinians are.

The opposing American viewpoint will say, "Nothing will ever be enough for them, and then they can attack Israel from a stronger position." Maybe they are right, but I also think continuing the way we have been going is insane, so why not try something else?

What are our options? Basically, genocide or appeasement, and I don't view genocide as an option that we can reasonably take. The thing is, Israel doesn't need us to maintain a 1-state solution, so why are we helping them? If we go for a 2-state solution and the time comes to defend Israel, that's when it would make sense to help. Palestine can't win that battle so I don't buy the "attack from a stronger position" concern.
 
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#18,205
#18,205
McDad said:
I am really not gunning for a right wrong convo. Sincerely trying to understand how others see things.

if a 2 state solution was agreed to by both, how long would the end of organized violence (not terrorist splinter groups or lone bad actors) last?
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Lmao. Huff is something else.

“I’m not interested in who is right and wrong”

But let me go ahead and paint for you a picture of the poor, pitiful, Palestinian peoples. Oppressed and murdered in their own streets by their ruthless Israeli occupiers.
 
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#18,206
#18,206
n_huffhines said:
All I can say is that we give ourselves a better chance at meaningful and lasting peace if we come to some sort of solution that is more agreeable to Palestinians. That's probably a 2-state solution, but I'm open to others. Not sure Palestinians are.

The opposing American viewpoint will say, "Nothing will ever be enough for them, and then they can attack Israel from a stronger position." Maybe they are right, but I also think continuing the way we have been going is insane, so why not try something else?

What are our options? Basically, genocide or appeasement, and I don't view genocide as an option that we can reasonably take. The thing is, Israel doesn't need us to maintain a 1-state solution, so why are we helping them? If we go for a 2-state solution and the time comes to defend Israel, that's when it would make sense to help. Palestine can't win that battle so I don't buy the "attack from a stronger position" concern.
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Do you have any opinion on how long peace might last under a two state solution?
 
#18,207
#18,207
The New York Times has reportedly fired “journalist” Anat Schwartz who co-wrote a front page story for the paper spreading pro-Israeli propaganda in repeating lies about Hamas fighters committed mass rapes during the October 7th attacks. The paper shouldn’t get off the hook so easily, however, for intentionally assigning this story to a former Israeli intelligence agent.
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#18,225
#18,225
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