Israel vs Palestinians

[EasternVol]

That’s a lot of spin to justify looking like a pos.

It's not spin. It's using words in context. Trying to distort that into a slur is the POS move.

 

[jp1]

That emotional component to whatever extent it exists was there when Israel sent the settlers in and then evacuated them. That hand has been played.

I'm confused on what you are saying in this quote. Do you care to explain a little further?

 

[EasternVol]

I'm confused on what you are saying in this quote. Do you care to explain a little further?

I mean it's existed throughout the conflict.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I think not. 8188 brought up that Israel withdrew from Gaza and tried to give it away. That was 20 years ago and that's what we were discussing.

Go reread it

 

[Orangeslice13]

It's not spin. It using words in context. Trying to distort that into a slur is the POS move.

No you have convictions of your beliefs. You’ve convinced me that you’d rather be known as a racist

 

[EasternVol]

No you have convictions of your beliefs. You’ve convinced me that you’d rather be known as a racist

Bad read.

 

[KB5252]

In everyone's opinion, based on what has happened to this point, does anyone feel there is a chance of these two living side by side in peace?

I personally do not. With that being the case what is a/the realistic pathway forward?

It seems to me one side wants and has had a Jewish state and it wants to maintain this state.

The other side wants to shed itself of Israeli government. By all accounts it wants to rid itself of the nation of Israel where it exists.

Both sides, to varying degrees say they want peace...... But the piece has not/cannot be maintained.

So what is the answer now, what path do we take?

The UN is incapable and the aggressors and sponsors of unrest will never let normalization happen. In my opinion Iran fostered the unrest and sponsored the operation to undermine normalization of other Arab countries with Israel and this would have had a profound impact on the people of Palestine and the future of the region. That normalization would have likely produced better outcomes for Israel and Palestine short and long term. Unfortunately I believe there are people intent on sabotaging a better future, even at their own peril.

 

[McDad]

In everyone's opinion, based on what has happened to this point, does anyone feel there is a chance of these two living side by side in peace?

I personally do not. With that being the case what is a/the realistic pathway forward?

It seems to me one side wants and has had a Jewish state and it wants to maintain this state.

The other side wants to shed itself of Israeli government. But all accounts it wants to rid itself of the nation of Israel where it exists.

Both sides, to varying degrees say they want peace...... But the piece has not/cannot be maintained.

So what is the answer now, what path do we take?

The UN is incapable and the aggressors and sponsors of unrest will never let normalization happen. In my opinion Iran fostered the unrest and sponsored the operation to undermine normalization of other Arab countries with Israel and this would have had a profound impact on the people of Palestine and the future of the region. That normalization would have likely produced better outcomes for Israel and Palestine short and long term. Unfortunately I believe there are people intent on sabotaging a better future, even at their own peril.

There's not a chance in the world. They only thing capable of ending this conflict is God's day of judgement.

 

[KB5252]

There's not a chance in the world. They only thing capable of ending this conflict is God's day of judgement.

But it was so close, maybe it's the optimism in me, I believe that good can overcome and evil can be beaten without mass extinction. I even consider myself a believer...... Through God all things are possible. I refuse to give up, there is so much good, so much light still left...........

 

[jp1]

In everyone's opinion, based on what has happened to this point, does anyone feel there is a chance of these two living side by side in peace?

I personally do not. With that being the case what is a/the realistic pathway forward?

It seems to me one side wants and has had a Jewish state and it wants to maintain this state.

The other side wants to shed itself of Israeli government. By all accounts it wants to rid itself of the nation of Israel where it exists.

Both sides, to varying degrees say they want peace...... But the piece has not/cannot be maintained.

So what is the answer now, what path do we take?

The UN is incapable and the aggressors and sponsors of unrest will never let normalization happen. In my opinion Iran fostered the unrest and sponsored the operation to undermine normalization of other Arab countries with Israel and this would have had a profound impact on the people of Palestine and the future of the region. That normalization would have likely produced better outcomes for Israel and Palestine short and long term. Unfortunately I believe there are people intent on sabotaging a better future, even at their own peril.

Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, Hamas will always seek unrest for the region, otherwise they will not exist. It's literally their whole purpose of existence.

 

[EasternVol]

Go reread it

post 19633

But yet control was offered to Egypt. And the land was given to Gazans. Both of those are counter to your claims of how land hungry they are, therefore you ignore those facts.

 

[McDad]

But it was so close, maybe it's the optimism in me, I believe that good can overcome and evil can be beaten without mass extinction. I even consider myself a believer...... Through God all things are possible. I refuse to give up, there is so much good, so much light still left...........

I admire your optimism. I am cynical. They will be fighting long after all of us are dead.

 

[LouderVol]

I understand your points. And, I agree with them.

If it is my nature to steal land, and I steal it not, then my nature is misrepresented.

Have we had a discussion about the settlements brought to the conversation? I don't know the history of the settlement, why it was chosen, how it was acquired, etc.

I don't think nature requires you to do whatever you are driven to all the time. otherwise there would be no thieves, mean people, alcoholics, etc, because they aren't doing whatever is their "nature" all the time or at every opportunity.

maybe if the argument was it was Israel's nature to steal PALENSTINIAN land, and they didn't in any of those scenarios, it would be a misrepresentation of them to say they steal Palestinian land. just because you pass up an opportunity doesn't negate the base influence or whatever your nature pushes you towards.

I also doubt the argument was ever the only Israeli nature was to steal land, there could easily be other factors of their nature that would cancel that out. scaling out to a whole people, its pretty clear they wouldn't survive very long if the majority of its people were unable to override their nature when other self interests were in conflict.

*again I don't think it is their nature to steal land, just speaking in generalities*

 

[Orangeslice13]

post 19633

There’s an entire conversation that flows out of every post. Keep reading it and maybe you’ll make sense of it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I don't think nature requires you to do whatever you are driven to all the time. otherwise there would be no thieves, mean people, alcoholics, etc, because they aren't doing whatever is their "nature" all the time or at every opportunity.

maybe if the argument was it was Israel's nature to steal PALENSTINIAN land, and they didn't in any of those scenarios, it would be a misrepresentation of them to say they steal Palestinian land. just because you pass up an opportunity doesn't negate the base influence or whatever your nature pushes you towards.

I also doubt the argument was ever the only Israeli nature was to steal land, there could easily be other factors of their nature that would cancel that out. scaling out to a whole people, its pretty clear they wouldn't survive very long if the majority of its people were unable to override their nature when other self interests were in conflict.

*again I don't think it is their nature to steal land, just speaking in generalities*

It’s nobody’s nature to steal anything.
That’s an individual choice. You’re not born into. Not even us lizard people, Zionist, zombie, settlers.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Bad read.

Read you loud and clear.
You’ve convinced me.

 

[LouderVol]

It’s nobody’s nature to steal anything.
That’s an individual choice. You’re not born into. Not even us lizard people, Zionist, zombie, settlers.

I would say it could be someone's nature. I will even argue its everyone's nature.

it DOMINATES human society, we all have the inherent want desire for more or better, or what someone else has. Stealing is just another means of acquiring more. or in some cases enough. Push comes to shove we would all steal to feed our family. there has to be SOMETHING in our nature that fuels that desire and ability. It could be as straightforward as its just another mechanism of survival that people continue to use outside of cases of need.

I would say all of the deadly sins, and what the Ten Commandments largely try to protect against is all human nature. We want to believe we are bigger/better than God and will put idols in front of him. we want our neighbors wives, slaves, and goods. when it comes down to it murder is even a base human reaction to something we perceive as a threat. God calls us away from our violent and destructive ways, stealing is one of those.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I would say it could be someone's nature. I will even argue its everyone's nature.

it DOMINATES human society, we all have the inherent want desire for more or better, or what someone else has. Stealing is just another means of acquiring more. or in some cases enough. Push comes to shove we would all steal to feed our family. there has to be SOMETHING in our nature that fuels that desire and ability. It could be as straightforward as its just another mechanism of survival that people continue to use outside of cases of need.

I would say all of the deadly sins, and what the Ten Commandments largely try to protect against is all human nature. We want to believe we are bigger/better than God and will put idols in front of him. we want our neighbors wives, slaves, and goods. when it comes down to it murder is even a base human reaction to something we perceive as a threat. God calls us away from our violent and destructive ways, stealing is one of those.

the issue isn’t what may or may not be in everyone’s nature.
It’s in singling out a group of individuals and saying their nature causes a behavior.
For example….
So you believe that Black people are more predisposed to crime than other races because it’s in their nature?

Of course not. That would be racism. Just like saying it’s in the nature of the Jewish leadership of Israel to steal land.

Saying “I meant Israel Nat the Jewish people” doesn’t erase the racism.
Israel is a different situation than any other country. They are a Jewish nation. They allow very few to join Israel as citizens who are not Jewish. And the ones they do have lived on the land they’re in for generations. You can not separate the nature of Israel from the nature of its people. I get that many don’t like that and don’t agree but every Jew in the world would respond the way I have by being told Israel has it in their nature to steal land.

 

[LouderVol]

the issue isn’t what may or may not be in everyone’s nature.
It’s in singling out a group of individuals and saying their nature causes a behavior.
For example….
So you believe that Black people are more predisposed to crime than other races because it’s in their nature?

Of course not. That would be racism. Just like saying it’s in the nature of the Jewish leadership of Israel to steal land.

Saying “I meant Israel Nat the Jewish people” doesn’t erase the racism.
Israel is a different situation than any other country. They are a Jewish nation. They allow very few to join Israel as citizens who are not Jewish. And the ones they do have lived on the land they’re in for generations. You can not separate the nature of Israel from the nature of its people. I get that many don’t like that and don’t agree but every Jew in the world would respond the way I have by being told Israel has it in their nature to steal land.

At least for me this is the only part that matters. I don't care what nation it is. I don't trust any politicians, a lot of people share that attribute, especially on this board. I don't know much about Israeli politics or politicians, mostly only about Netanyahu, and at least he is sleeze bag of the typical politician type and he has his fingers all over this.

I don't think its racist to say one doesn't trust the politicians, which is how I took the whole exchange.

Israel meaning the nation, meaning the government, meaning the politicians. you want it to be offensive so you took it as Israel = all the dirty jews. those are very much two separate things, and we have made that distinction elsewhere. and it wouldn't be the people who would have been stealing the land in his example. it would have 100% been the government. especially if he was falsely claiming it to be a long standing issue that would exceed any racism towards an individual.

it goes back to arguments/distinctions we have made in other threads, we have quiet separated the concept of the government from the concept of the nation itself, yet alone its people. not sure why we would treat one nation differently.

this just seems like another case of hypercharged emotions where people don't want to have a civil discussion and are taking any excuse possible to be offended to avoid addressing the actual discussion.

but if you want disliking Israeli politicians to be racist, chalk me up as another racist.

 

[Orangeslice13]

At least for me this is the only part that matters. I don't care what nation it is. I don't trust any politicians, a lot of people share that attribute, especially on this board. I don't know much about Israeli politics or politicians, mostly only about Netanyahu, and at least he is sleeze bag of the typical politician type and he has his fingers all over this.

I don't think its racist to say one doesn't trust the politicians, which is how I took the whole exchange.

Israel meaning the nation, meaning the government, meaning the politicians. you want it to be offensive so you took it as Israel = all the dirty jews. those are very much two separate things, and we have made that distinction elsewhere. and it wouldn't be the people who would have been stealing the land in his example. it would have 100% been the government. especially if he was falsely claiming it to be a long standing issue that would exceed any racism towards an individual.

it goes back to arguments/distinctions we have made in other threads, we have quiet separated the concept of the government from the concept of the nation itself, yet alone its people. not sure why we would treat one nation differently.

this just seems like another case of hypercharged emotions where people don't want to have a civil discussion and are taking any excuse possible to be offended to avoid addressing the actual discussion.

but if you want disliking Israeli politicians to be racist, chalk me up as another racist.

It doesn’t matter if you like it or agree with it. It is what it is.
You can say you don’t like whatever political decision they make for whatever reason and it’s not racism. I started this whole thing disagreeing with something Israel did. You can say historically that’s something they’ve done. Not racism. You don’t get to say it’s something they do because it’s in their nature. That’s absolutely racism.

 

[85SugarVol]

I've tried to help elucidate why "those with a nature to steal land" would not be motivated or dissuaded based on arguments of utility. I have further tried to shed light on why it is challenging to assess motivation as a third party. Additionally, I think the terms being used aren't conducive to understanding the points everyone is making.

I did my best. I may have failed miserably. But I've done all I know to do at this point.

Let me boil it down for you … “Jews bad”

 

[85SugarVol]

It doesn’t matter if you like it or agree with it. It is what it is.
You can say you don’t like whatever political decision they make for whatever reason and it’s not racism. I started this whole thing disagreeing with something Israel did. You can say historically that’s something they’ve done. Not racism. You don’t get to say it’s something they do because it’s in their nature. That’s absolutely racism.

I hate Israel is such a convenient position.

I don’t hate Jews…

I just hate the Jewish State
Headed by Jewish politicians
For Jewish people
That by and large practice Judaism

But I totally don’t hate Jews…

 

[OrangeTsar]

20 years ago it was heavily populated and built up. Today the infrastructure is wrecked. It looks like Israel is trying to make it uninhabitable. Again, you're the one who brought up events of 20 years ago.

Sort of like Hamburg, Berlin, Munich and Dresden looked in 1945……
Play stupid games…….

 

[OrangeTsar]

But it was so close, maybe it's the optimism in me, I believe that good can overcome and evil can be beaten without mass extinction. I even consider myself a believer...... Through God all things are possible. I refuse to give up, there is so much good, so much light still left...........

God Himself says there will be no peace in that region until the Prince of Peace arrives to decide the Battle of Armageddon.
Good WILL overcome evil; but evil has to be decisively beaten. Fascinating that a 2000 year old book predicted exactly where the conflict would end

 

[Orangeslice13]

I hate Israel is such a convenient position.

I don’t hate Jews…

I just hate the Jewish State
Headed by Jewish politicians
For Jewish people
That by and large practice Judaism

But I totally don’t hate Jews…

I am so sick of that **** too.

You can legitimately criticize the politics of Israel without resorting to antisemitic tropes.

It’s honestly not that hard to do.