Israel vs Palestinians

[OrangeTsar]

That relative peace they always talk about never existed. It was fine when the Arabs persecuted Jews indiscriminately. But when the shoe was on the other foot and Jews could no longer be subjugated….now it’s a problem.

Once the Middle East was freed from Ottoman rule, centuries of pent up hostility and grievances were uncorked. It was like striking a match at a refinery. Very analogous to what happened with Yugoslavia after the Soviets pulled out but 10 times worse

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Still searching my history books for the war in which no civilians were killed. So far coming upon empty. Can you help me locate one?

You still miss the point. There is supposed to be an effort to minimize civilian casualties. No one is saying that there was ever a war that didn't have civilian casualties.

 

[just bob]

No, it means that we should not have killed innocent civilians in Dresden, Hamburg and the millions more Germans after the war.

You still don't get it. Kill the Nazis or kill Hamas, but not the civilians. This really isn't that hard to understand if you are a normal human being.

Who are the "Civilians" in the Gaza strip?

 

[EasternVol]

That relative peace they always talk about never existed. It was fine when the Arabs persecuted Jews indiscriminately. But when the shoe was on the other foot and Jews could no longer be subjugated….now it’s a problem.

If Jews were being persecuted under Ottoman rule why did Jews fleeing European persecution go there?
Is there documentation of serious persecution in Palestine before the British?

 

[EasternVol]

Once the Middle East was freed from Ottoman rule, centuries of pent up hostility and grievances were uncorked. It was like striking a match at a refinery. Very analogous to what happened with Yugoslavia after the Soviets pulled out but 10 times worse

So the Ottomans i.e. the Muslims were keeping things civil? Hmmm.
But you're leaving out a very important factor happening in the 20's other than the change in management.

 

[EasternVol]

Who are the "Civilians" in the Gaza strip?

If there's anyone who doesn't know what a civilian is it would be you.

 

[OrangeTsar]

No, it means that we should not have killed innocent civilians in Dresden, Hamburg and the millions more Germans after the war.

You still don't get it. Kill the Nazis or kill Hamas, but not the civilians. This really isn't that hard to understand if you are a normal human being.

Even if we take away Dresden and Hamburg, there were still millions of civilians killed by our “precision” (best we had at that time) bombing raids. War is Just messy. It is sad and I am not saying the civilians in Gaza “deserved” this in any way. Same with us if we elected a President who started a war that ended up getting the US attacked. We wouldn’t “deserve” it but we would be “responsible” to some extent. Does that make sense?
In terms of Germans killed after the war; there was a huge difference in the US occupied zone vs the Soviet zone and especially Berlin. That was a raping and pillaging nightmare.

 

[Vol8188]

You still miss the point. There is supposed to be an effort to minimize civilian casualties. No one is saying that there was ever a war that didn't have civilian casualties.

Even you can name numerous things the IDF does to limit civilian casualties.

Neither of us can name anything Hamas does to limit civilian casualties. In fact, they do the opposite. They block roads so civilians can’t leave. They openly kill civilians for aid. It’s openly known that they hoard much of the aid that comes in for themselves.

Yet you mainly blame the IDF for civilian deaths…

 

[OrangeTsar]

So the Ottomans i.e. the Muslims were keeping things civil? Hmmm.
But you're leaving out a very important factor happening in the 20's other than the change in management.

Yeah I said I would write more later today. I know about the Balfour Declaration and the roving bands of militants on both sides and the resulting terrorist attacks.
The one distinction I would make is the refusal of the Arab population to agree to and stuck with any efforts at a mutually agreeable settlement. Again, didn’t live through that time so I only have what I have read which is probably different that what you have read.

 

[just bob]

If there's anyone who doesn't know what a civilian is it would be you.

Who are the "Civilians" in the Gaza strip?

 

[OrangeTsar]

Who are the "Civilians" in the Gaza strip?

That is part of the problem when you are fighting a largely un uniformed irregular “army”, especially one that deliberately intermixes into the civilian population. What would be your strategy in that situation? (Honest question, not trolling)
Edit: Sorry, I thought I was replying to Easternvol. So the question was for that individual.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Even if we take away Dresden and Hamburg, there were still millions of civilians killed by our “precision” (best we had at that time) bombing raids.

Of course there were. I just mentioned those two because they are the most notable.

So how is this making your point???

War is Just messy. It is sad and I am not saying the civilians in Gaza “deserved” this in any way.

If you are saying “Elections have consequences”, then that is EXACTLY WTF you are saying. You even justified the killing of millions of Germans during and after the war because of elections.

Same with us if we elected a President who started a war that ended up getting the US attacked. We wouldn’t “deserve” it but we would be “responsible” to some extent. Does that make sense?

Seems like the best way to protect from that scenario would be for us to embrace peace, diplomacy, mutually beneficial relations and respect for others... Something that we haven't tried in our lifetimes.

In terms of Germans killed after the war; there was a huge difference in the US occupied zone vs the Soviet zone and especially Berlin. That was a raping and pillaging nightmare.

No, it was not.

Other Losses

Other Losses is a 1989 book by Canadian writer James Bacque, which outlines U.S. General Dwight D. Eisenhower intentionally caused the deaths by starvation or exposure of around a million German prisoners of war held in Western internment camps after the Second World War. Other Losses charges that hundreds of thousands of German prisoners that had fled the Eastern front were designated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" in order to avoid recognition under the Geneva Convention (1929), for the purpose of carrying out their deaths through disease or slow starvation. Other Losses cites documents in the U.S. National Archives and interviews with people who stated they witnessed the events. The book displays that a "method of genocide" was present in the banning of Red Cross inspectors, the returning of food aid, soldier ration policy, and policy regarding shelter building.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That is part of the problem when you are fighting a largely un uniformed irregular “army”, especially one that deliberately intermixes into the civilian population. What would be your strategy in that situation? (Honest question, not trolling)

You would/should conduct a special military operation.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yeah I said I would write more later today. I know about the Balfour Declaration and the roving bands of militants on both sides and the resulting terrorist attacks.
The one distinction I would make is the refusal of the Arab population to agree to and stuck with any efforts at a mutually agreeable settlement. Again, didn’t live through that time so I only have what I have read which is probably different that what you have read.

Jews, Muslims and Christians had been living there peacefully until the rabid, European Zionists started rolling in during the early 20th Century.

 

[OrangeTsar]

You would/should conduct a special military operation.

Which means what exactly? A Commando raid? A 20 person Team deep inside enemy territory surrounded by millions of people who may or not be enemy soldiers? Same problems but even more suicidal

 

[EasternVol]

Yeah I said I would write more later today. I know about the Balfour Declaration and the roving bands of militants on both sides and the resulting terrorist attacks.
The one distinction I would make is the refusal of the Arab population to agree to and stuck with any efforts at a mutually agreeable settlement. Again, didn’t live through that time so I only have what I have read which is probably different that what you have read.

It's hard to see how anyone would agree to being dispossessed.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Which means what exactly? A Commando raid? A 20 person Team deep inside enemy territory surrounded by millions of people who may or not be enemy soldiers? Same problems but even more suicidal

The specifics I cannot give you. But turning Gaza into Dresden or Stalingrad and killing far more civilians than Hamas hasn't been working the past 9 months. Hamas is already buried and all Israel did was bring the entire area under rubble, which plays into Hamas' hands and limits the mobility of the IDF.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Which means what exactly? A Commando raid? A 20 person Team deep inside enemy territory surrounded by millions of people who may or not be enemy soldiers? Same problems but even more suicidal

The closest thing to compare Gaza to in the SMO would be the Battle of Mariupol. Essentially, that was door-to-door fighting in a heavily populated area.

 

[just bob]

You would/should conduct a special military operation.

Oh wow, send that to the IDF. If they just do a "Special" operation then you'll quit crying.

 

[OrangeTsar]

The specifics I cannot give you. But turning Gaza into Dresden or Stalingrad and killing far more civilians than Hamas hasn't been working the past 9 months. Hamas is already buried and all Israel did was bring the entire area under rubble, which plays into Hamas' hands and limits the mobility of the IDF.

Honest question, so when the Nazis were similarly literally buried in Berlin in April 1945 and Hitler was cowering in a bunker like the Hamas leadership is right now, should the Red Army have stopped at the outskirts of Berlin instead of going in and routing them out? Obviously a commando raid wouldn’t have gotten it done.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

They are human. I just don't GAS about them because they overwhelmingly support a terrorist 'government'

The United States is a terrorist organization. Do you GAS about American civilian lives if some foreign entity wanted to wipe us out over our support of the Israelis, KSA, Al Qaeda. ISIS, PKK, etc?

 

[McDad]

The United States is a terrorist organization. Do you GAS about American civilian lives if some foreign entity wanted to wipe us out over our support of the Israel, KSA, Al Qaeda. ISIS, PKK, etc?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Honest question, so when the Nazis were similarly literally buried in Berlin in April 1945 and Hitler was cowering in a bunker like the Hamas leadership is right now,

Again, Stalingrad. The Germans brought every building down and killed a ton of civilians, yet were not able to move around and played right into the hands of the Soviets hiding and ambushing them.

should the Red Army have stopped at the outskirts of Berlin instead of going in and routing them out?

That is close to what I was saying when I compared Gaza to the Battle of Mariupol.

Obviously a commando raid wouldn’t have gotten it done.

You are the one talking about commando raids, whatever that means.

Which means what exactly? A Commando raid? A 20 person Team deep inside enemy territory surrounded by millions of people who may or not be enemy soldiers? Same problems but even more suicidal

 

[85SugarVol]

Calm down.

Sure thing, Reinhard.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

View attachment 656794

I'm being reasonable. To not recognize the US as a terrorist state is jumping the shark.