I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

#277
#277
luthervol said:
Many, not all, survive to birth.
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Not all babies survive to become toddlers, or toddlers become adolescents, or adolescents become adults, or adults become seniors, or seniors become elderly.

What is your point? To prove that people die of natural causes? What does that to do with one or more humans deliberately and intentionally deciding to terminate the life of another human?
 
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#278
#278
Orangeslice13 said:
That technology doesn’t currently exist.
How about we stop blaming the tool and address the problem instead
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He asked for solutions to gun violence. I gave one that arguably would prevent much gun violence.

I'm fully in favor of 2nd Amendment rights, but why would anyone be opposed to making the tool safer to use? How is that "blaming the tool" when we're simply trying to ensure that the tool is used as intended?

The problem is human nature. The ultimate answer is to change people's hearts and minds, but that still doesn't eliminate neglect and carelessness, impulse control, mental illness, etc.

What are your solutions?
 
#279
#279
creekdipper said:
He asked for solutions to gun violence. I gave one that arguably would prevent much gun violence.

I'm fully in favor of 2nd Amendment rights, but why would anyone be opposed to making the tool safer to use? How is that "blaming the tool" when we're simply trying to ensure that the tool is used as intended?

The problem is human nature. The ultimate answer is to change people's hearts and minds, but that still doesn't eliminate neglect and carelessness, impulse control, mental illness, etc.

What are your solutions?
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Ban assault hammers and assault knives
Maybe even the assault automobile.

or we can address the actual problems of mental health and the family crisis in this country.
 
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#280
#280
Orangeslice13 said:
Ban assault hammers and assault knives
Maybe even the assault automobile.

or we can address the actual problems of mental health and the family crisis in this country.
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How does banning assault hammers and assault knives and assault automobiles address gun violence? I'm genuinely curious.

(Also acknowledging that the topic was originally brought up by an abortion proponent as a deflection from the actual thread topic).
 
#281
#281
creekdipper said:
How does banning assault hammers and assault knives and assault automobiles address gun violence? I'm genuinely curious.

(Also acknowledging that the topic was originally brought up by an abortion proponent as a deflection from the actual thread topic).
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More deaths from those than guns so obviously we need to address the real problems first.
 
#282
#282
Face it, over the next 30 years you will have abortion being decided on a state by state basis. Dems are going to focus on SCOTUS like the Repubs have since the 70's and will take it back. The Roberts Court has eliminated the deference to precedent so subsequent liberal courts will go all the way back to abortion on demand.

Lot's of fundraising opportunities for the political class.

The game is in the abortion pill. Some states are trying to ban it but this is strictly under the auspices of the FDA meaning it has primacy over the states in regulation unless SCOTUS wants to throw out 70 years of multiple court decisions. Online pharmacies will Fedex it to any woman who wants it.

And for the person who started this string, you're in the wrong part of the country if you're looking for support of abortion. You have a better chance of getting Southern Baptists to ordain women.
 
#284
#284
Hunerwadel said:
A woman doesn't need any help from the government deciding what is best for her.

That's all I'm going to say about it. These abortion threads just keep rehashing the same arguments that we've all heard before.
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You neglect the ethical portion of the argument, that is a job for government as it relates to society. Make no mistake, they do it poorly, because we choose those who represent us poorly but the fact remains.
 
#285
#285
creekdipper said:
How does banning assault hammers and assault knives and assault automobiles address gun violence? I'm genuinely curious.

(Also acknowledging that the topic was originally brought up by an abortion proponent as a deflection from the actual thread topic).
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The problem is violence not the instrument used during the violent act.
 
#286
#286
creekdipper said:
Not all babies survive to become toddlers, or toddlers become adolescents, or adolescents become adults, or adults become seniors, or seniors become elderly.

What is your point? To prove that people die of natural causes? What does that to do with one or more humans deliberately and intentionally deciding to terminate the life of another human?
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Who is advocating for that? Certainly not me.
 
#287
#287
Funny how when a woman decides to end a child's development in her womb, she receives no legal recourse. But if a man abandons his kids once they are born, he's hunted down by the hounds of hell and forced to pay child support.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying I advocate men abandoning their children. I'm just pointing out he hypocrisy.
 
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#288
#288
hog88 said:
The problem is violence not the instrument used during the violent act.
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Well, if you will note, I said that the ultimate problem lies with human nature and the need to change hearts and minds. You would still have to deal with accidents...not too many accidental stabbings or knives and hammers going off...but the issue remains how to change hearts and minds. It's not as though all gun violence is due to certifiable mental illness.

People can be killed in a variety of ways, but the easiest, most efficient, and least threatening to the perpetrator is to use a firearm. How do the numbers of mass stabbing incidents (or any alternative weapon) compare statistically to incidents involving firearms? There are many readons for that, but there is no argument that guns are the weapon of choice.
 
#289
#289
creekdipper said:
Well, if you will note, I said that the ultimate problem lies with human nature and the need to change hearts and minds. You would still have to deal with accidents...not too many accidental stabbings or knives and hammers going off...but the issue remains how to change hearts and minds. It's not as though all gun violence is due to certifiable mental illness.

People can be killed in a variety of ways, but the easiest, most efficient, and least threatening to the perpetrator is to use a firearm. How do the numbers of mass stabbing incidents (or any alternative weapon) compare statistically to incidents involving firearms? There are many readons for that, but there is no argument that guns are the weapon of choice.
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I think if you looked up the data you will find that you are wrong. I don’t think guns are the number 1 murder weapon.
 
#290
#290
creekdipper said:
To answer your question about why my beliefs should supersede yours, it's because my beliefs are based upon science, reason, and legal precedents. I would think those reasons would be sufficient.

Your logic would have been embraced by slave owners in the 1800's to tell abolitionists to "mind their own business." If they wanted to believe that certain people were property rather than fully human, who was someone else to argue with an issue that "didn't affect them."

If buggy stickers had existed at the time, a popular one among slave owners would have read, "If you don't believe in slavery, don't own one." Sound familiar?

Are we to presume that you are also against people speaking out on topics that "don't affect them" such as poverty, child abuse, domestic abuse, rights of minorities, public education, etc.? You don't want others to "impose their 'morals' " upon others in those cases?
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You take my stance advocating for self-determination and try to make it analogous to slave ownership? I’ve seen some mental gymnastics in this forum, but that takes the cake.

Nothing you conjure up will convince me that I should allow you to impose your contested view on when life begins on me and my family. Good luck with that, though.
 
#291
#291
creekdipper said:
Who can argue with such persuasive logic?
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No one.

Smart guns are dumb policy and a bad idea. Firearms are built to reliably chamber a round, have the trigger trip a sear to release a striker or hammer to have firing pin hit and ignite the primer & ignite powder and send a bullet down the barrel. They're designed to do that reliably, repeatedly with dirty hands, either hand, by another family member or friend, a detrimental environment, even inattention to maintenance.

The biometric tech may likely never exist that doesn't introduce variability into the need to go bang! every time the trigger is pulled by whomever is pulling it. No PD or military would adopt such a weapon for those reasons. Neither would any marginally astute gun owner. I'd rather take the chance that I will be disarmed and shot with my own gun than have it potentially fail to respond to my deliberate action.
 
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#292
#292
creekdipper said:
Well, if you will note, I said that the ultimate problem lies with human nature and the need to change hearts and minds. You would still have to deal with accidents...not too many accidental stabbings or knives and hammers going off...but the issue remains how to change hearts and minds. It's not as though all gun violence is due to certifiable mental illness.

People can be killed in a variety of ways, but the easiest, most efficient, and least threatening to the perpetrator is to use a firearm. How do the numbers of mass stabbing incidents (or any alternative weapon) compare statistically to incidents involving firearms? There are many readons for that, but there is no argument that guns are the weapon of choice.
Click to expand...

Which is why nothing equalizes the playing field faster, more efficiently, and less dangerously than a firearm for the person defending themself. About a third of annual murders do not involve a firearm. More people annually are beaten to death with hands/feet than are killed with all types of rifles and shotguns. Handguns are preferred by lawful citizen and criminal alike for their utility, not necessarily for their effectiveness.

And you're examining half the equation - firearm deaths - without examining deaths/injuries avoided due to defensive presence of a firearm regardless of whether it was fired or brandished to warn off attack. The lowest estimates ranges from 80K to 100s/1000s; some have even estimated defensive uses from 1 - 2.5 million. If we assume the approximate middle range of say, 500K, we're considering a potentially much higher rate of murder and injury than currently experienced.

I don't know your intentions, but frequently 'just sensible gun control' is often coming from prohibitionists who know little about firearms and don't seem to care about 2A rights or defensive use; they fully believe disarming lawful citizens will by extension disarm the criminal. This is foolish. There are between 300-400 million firearms in U.S. circulation and has approximately doubled or tripled since the 1990s Brady Act and implementation of NICS. Despite that explosion of arms in circulation, until the last couple years the murder rate had fallen steadily and reduced to about 1/3 of the peak in the mid-90s, and at/near the lowest in nearly a century. Also during this time CCW has become nearly ubiquitous. Accidental shootings also precipitously declined to ridiculously low levels. So the problem - clearly - is not related to the number of guns in circulation or numbers of people lawfully carrying them and exercising their rights.

The mid-1990s were also the peak for robbery, agg. assault, rape, and burglary. Gun crime does not rise and fall in a vacuum, but ebbs and flows with general crime rates.
 
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#293
#293
NCFisher said:
No one.

Smart guns are dumb policy and a bad idea. Firearms are built to reliably chamber a round, have the trigger trip a sear to release a striker or hammer to have firing pin hit and ignite the primer & ignite powder and send a bullet down the barrel. They're designed to do that reliably, repeatedly with dirty hands, either hand, by another family member or friend, a detrimental environment, even inattention to maintenance.

The biometric tech may likely never exist that doesn't introduce variability into the need to go bang! every time the trigger is pulled by whomever is pulling it. No PD or military would adopt such a weapon for those reasons. Neither would any marginally astute gun owner. I'd rather take the chance that I will be disarmed and shot with my own gun than have it potentially fail to respond to my deliberate action.
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I fail to believe that we can develop technology to send spacecraft to Mars that transmit images back to Earth yet cannot develop reliable technology to control firing of guns.
 
#294
#294
My brother just recently bought a magazine load shotgun for home defense. He bought 2 10 round magazines and told me he could buy a 15 or 20 round magazine for it. He did admit that if he was still in trouble after 10 rounds, he had a major problem on his hands.
 
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#296
#296
creekdipper said:
Have parents teach their children to respect human life (sort of hard to do when the state condones the termination of nearly a million lives per year).

Require gun manufacturers to incorporate "smart" technology to require individual owner recognition in order to operate the weapon system.
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This could be abused by hackers and governments for that matter.
 
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#297
#297
K-town Vol Fan said:
The government should not be allowed to determine what a woman (or man) does with her/his body. To me, thats what it comes down to.

I'm betting most of you guys screaming anti-abortion were the same ones against covid vaccine mandates because it should be a "personal choice left up to the individual." The same reasoning should apply here. No matter how late it keeps you up at night.
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Another typical ignorant and idiotic statement from you.
 
#299
#299
creekdipper said:
I fail to believe that we can develop technology to send spacecraft to Mars that transmit images back to Earth yet cannot develop reliable technology to control firing of guns.
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Then here's your Hubble gun:
LodeStar integrated both a fingerprint reader and a near-field communication chip activated by a phone app, plus a PIN pad. The gun can be authorized for more than one user.

The fingerprint reader unlocks the gun in microseconds, but since it may not work when wet or in other adverse conditions, the PIN pad is there as a backup. LodeStar did not demonstrate the near-field communication signal, but it would act as a secondary backup, enabling the gun as quickly as users can open the app on their phones. Smart guns finally arriving in US, seeking to shake up firearms market

- and I wish you the best.
 
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