I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

[Vol8188]

Haha, so I assume you preach about personal liberties and self-determination… except in this instance.

Killing your kid isn’t a “Liberty” nor does it have to do with self determination.

When you see a mom drowned her kids in the bathtub do you praise her self determination and expression of her American liberty?

 

[ButchPlz]

Killing your kid isn’t a “Liberty” nor does it have to do with self determination.

When you see a mom drowned her kids in the bathtub do you praise her self determination and expression of her American liberty?

As long as it's within 7 days of birth, it's a wonderful symbol of self-determination and feminine power according to brave Sir Original Poster and his Band of Lovely Men.

 

[hog88]

A couple of random thoughts.

First, I think we'd all agree that while long guns can be used to kill humans its going to be a far lower proportion of total gun violence than are handguns. If someone uses a long gun it was probably a planned killing. Handguns might be resorted to in a panic, in a robbery gone bad, in a drug deal gone bad, etc.

Second, any of the gun proponents on this board take pride in how careful they are to prevent their guns from being misused or stolen. They then dismiss complaints about society at large not being that good about this issue.

The problem I have is that there are plenty of gun owners out there not nearly as responsible as the board members might be. Now the board members who claim they are responsible don't want to be "penalized" for the lack of effort by their less responsible counterparts. Ok. But that doesn't fix the problem.

Nothing you have ever proposed would fix the problem since you willfully ignore the problem

 

[OHvol40]

Killing your kid isn’t a “Liberty” nor does it have to do with self determination.

When you see a mom drowned her kids in the bathtub do you praise her self determination and expression of her American liberty?

Your kid isn’t a kid until it can actually be a kid. Sensationalism and hyperbole are a crutch. I believe life isn’t life until it can breathe air.

 

[lawgator1]

Nothing you have ever proposed would fix the problem since you willfully ignore the problem

The board members I speak of takenit upon themselves to be responsible and care for their guns, keep them out of the hands of criminals.

For those who don't at this point we need to incentive them to do so. They need to pay when they buy w gun, it's stolen, and used in a crime. Start setting some examples.

 

[Vol8188]

Your kid isn’t a kid until it can actually be a kid. Sensationalism and hyperbole are a crutch. I believe life isn’t life until it can breathe air.

So you support abortion until birth based on nothing more than your own “belief”?

 

[OHvol40]

So you support abortion until birth based on nothing more than your own “belief”?

No, until viability for birth.

 

[Vol8188]

A couple of random thoughts.

First, I think we'd all agree that while long guns can be used to kill humans its going to be a far lower proportion of total gun violence than are handguns. If someone uses a long gun it was probably a planned killing. Handguns might be resorted to in a panic, in a robbery gone bad, in a drug deal gone bad, etc.

Second, any of the gun proponents on this board take pride in how careful they are to prevent their guns from being misused or stolen. They then dismiss complaints about society at large not being that good about this issue.

The problem I have is that there are plenty of gun owners out there not nearly as responsible as the board members might be. Now the board members who claim they are responsible don't want to be "penalized" for the lack of effort by their less responsible counterparts. Ok. But that doesn't fix the problem.

Do you wish to criminalize being the victim of all thefts or only gun theft? I can’t think of a more insane argument.

Perhaps we can end sexual violence Islamic style, by criminalizing being the victim of rape.

 

[Vol8188]

No, until viability for birth.

That’s a different standard. You realize that right?

Why would you care if you don’t truly believe them to be alive?

We should also mention that you’re hiding behind a religious like “belief” rather than actual science which would tell you the child is alive from the moment of conception.

 

[C-south]

I have a gun with my biometrics and I get killed in home invasion, my wife can’t use said gun

How does it work with gloves? Hell the Touch ID on my phone gets dicey for a bit if I wash my hands or they’re damp.

 

[Wireless1]

Insure hope the biometrics for guns are better than iPhones, rarely do I get into my phone two times in a row on the first try

 

[hog88]

The board members I speak of takenit upon themselves to be responsible and care for their guns, keep them out of the hands of criminals.

For those who don't at this point we need to incentive them to do so. They need to pay when they buy w gun, it's stolen, and used in a crime. Start setting some examples.

How about just punish the ones doing the stealing?

 

[OHvol40]

That’s a different standard. You realize that right?

Why would you care if you don’t truly believe them to be alive?

We should also mention that you’re hiding behind a religious like “belief” rather than actual science which would tell you the child is alive from the moment of conception.

Science tells me that a fetus isn’t viable life without full nutritional and oxygen support from the mother until around 24 weeks at the earliest. Again, my position lets people determine where they stand in the matter for themselves, your position forces your views on others who disagree, you realize this right?

I know how I want to relate to my fellow humans, and it certainly isn’t dictating my version of morality on them in hotly contested matters. Maybe you’re cut from a different cloth.

 

[Vol8188]

Science tells me that a fetus isn’t viable life without full nutritional and oxygen support from the mother until around 24 weeks at the earliest. Again, my position lets people determine where they stand in the matter for themselves, your position forces your views on others who disagree, you realize this right?

I know how I want to relate to my fellow humans, and it certainly isn’t dictating my version of morality on them in hotly contested matters. Maybe you’re cut from a different cloth.

1. Agreed. That's why the left's new endorsement of abortion on demand without restrictions such as when Buttigieg stated the limit on abortion "should be up to the woman" is sickening because like all people x% of women will make terrible decisions and kill viable fetuses late in pregnancy. Many on here will hide behind dumb arguments like "no woman would carry a baby that long and kill it for no reason", which is about as far removed from reality as you can be given x number of babies are abandoned each year.

2. You do realize it's gross to say that you're specifically choosing your position on when life begins to fit around your goal of allowing people to determine where they stand for themselves. Yes, my position forces my views of murder onto others. Laws should enforce murder. I agree at some point there is gray area and I'm open to compromise on abortion (Roe v Wade is actually a good compromise, it's just not the courts job to do that). The left does not want compromise. They want abortion on demand at any stage.

3. If you're changing your definition of life (birth) to help you "relate to my fellow humans", then you don't actually have a morality. Morality would be starting with questions like "is it alive" (obviously yes), "can it survive on it's on" (trickier), and "are there alternatives" (in many cases), and building your standard from there. Not starting with "how can I define life to maximize my ability to relate to my fellow humans"

 

[NCFisher]

Science tells me that a fetus isn’t viable life without full nutritional and oxygen support from the mother until around 24 weeks at the earliest. Again, my position lets people determine where they stand in the matter for themselves, your position forces your views on others who disagree, you realize this right?

I know how I want to relate to my fellow humans, and it certainly isn’t dictating my version of morality on them in hotly contested matters. Maybe you’re cut from a different cloth.

This is a bad premise: the food, water, shelter and protection in the womb are the same things the newborn, infant, toddler, and pre-schooler, pre-teen require from the mother, father - someone - until it can survive on it's own, period.

Here's the basic difference between fetus or zygote and baby; the 20 year old who doesn't want to be pregnant for whatever reason and that same 28 y.o. female when ready to have a family who never says "we're having a fetus" or "oh, the little zygote is doing great" or "my friends are throwing a cheeto blob shower for me!" It's why we'd innately be pissed at a pregnant women with a cigarette and margarita in her hands regardless of her pregnancy term.

We all know it's human life, that given the opportunity will most likely be birthed and perhaps post on VN some day. 24 weeks is arbitrary disregard of that human life, established to justify a barbaric practice that could be reduced to a fraction of its number with contraception in a time in which it has never been more available. The woman chooses what to do with her body irresponsibly, then it's no longer just her body but two.

 

[Vol8188]

This is a bad premise: the food, water, shelter and protection in the womb are the same things the newborn, infant, toddler, and pre-schooler, pre-teen require from the mother, father - someone - until it can survive on it's own, period.

Here's the basic difference between fetus or zygote and baby; the 20 year old who doesn't want to be pregnant for whatever reason and that same 28 y.o. female when ready to have a family who never says "we're having a fetus" or "oh, the little zygote is doing great" or "my friends are throwing a cheeto blob shower for me!" It's why we'd innately be pissed at a pregnant women with a cigarette and margarita in her hands regardless of her pregnancy term.

We all know it's human life, that given the opportunity will most likely be birthed and perhaps post on VN some day. 24 weeks is arbitrary disregard of that human life established to justify a barbaric practice that could be reduced to a fraction of its number with contraception in a time in which it has never been more available. The woman chooses what to do with her body irresponsibly, then it's no longer just her body but two.

Remember when we all used to joke that the left was only a few years away from openly embracing hormone therapy for kids? Perhaps we shouldn't give them any ideas? Next election cycle Disney and Biden may be openly embracing child abandonment too. If your kid is with the government, they don't have to worry about you interfering with their indoctrination.

 

[lawgator1]

Do you wish to criminalize being the victim of all thefts or only gun theft? I can’t think of a more insane argument.

Perhaps we can end sexual violence Islamic style, by criminalizing being the victim of rape.

Yes, that's a perfect analogy.












Please. You can do better... I pray you can do better.

 

[lawgator1]

How about just punish the ones doing the stealing?

How about both?

Penalize criminally those who steal and civilly those who fail to take basic, reasonable precautions with something they should be responsible for.

 

[Vol8188]

Yes, that's a perfect analogy.

Please. You can do better... I pray you can do better.

To be clear you still see victims of theft as criminals themselves only if those victims of theft are gun owners? Am I understanding your argument?

 

[Vol8188]

How about both?

Penalize criminally those who steal and civilly those who fail to take basic, reasonable precautions with something they should be responsible for.

Are the doors to your home and vehicle locked at all times with all windows up and/or locked? If not, what would happen if someone stole a knife from your kitchen, hotwired your car, killed 20 people with your car/knife, and then overdosed on the Tylenol they stole from your cabinet?

Would you be the responsible party? If not, how is this different?

 

[C-south]

How about both?

Penalize criminally those who steal and civilly those who fail to take basic, reasonable precautions with something they should be responsible for.

So dumb.

 

[OHvol40]

This is a bad premise: the food, water, shelter and protection in the womb are the same things the newborn, infant, toddler, and pre-schooler, pre-teen require from the mother, father - someone - until it can survive on it's own, period.

Here's the basic difference between fetus or zygote and baby; the 20 year old who doesn't want to be pregnant for whatever reason and that same 28 y.o. female when ready to have a family who never says "we're having a fetus" or "oh, the little zygote is doing great" or "my friends are throwing a cheeto blob shower for me!" It's why we'd innately be pissed at a pregnant women with a cigarette and margarita in her hands regardless of her pregnancy term.

We all know it's human life, that given the opportunity will most likely be birthed and perhaps post on VN some day. 24 weeks is arbitrary disregard of that human life, established to justify a barbaric practice that could be reduced to a fraction of its number with contraception in a time in which it has never been more available. The woman chooses what to do with her body irresponsibly, then it's no longer just her body but two.

24 weeks isn’t arbitrary, it is my formulated opinion on roughly when life begins. I’ve been part of thousands of births (many have moved me to tears) and thousands of D&C procedures. I’ve seen many things happen in countless scenarios. Even though I feel like I’ve seen it all, I am not going to force my belief onto anyone else that life begins at 24ish weeks. You’re welcome to believe it begins at conception, or birth, or any time in-between. Try to instill those values in your loved ones if you feel so convicted. Please do.

The difference is my stance allows people to disagree, while many on here want to deny that freedom of thought and choice. If that’s the country you want to live in, great. I’m not keen on a non-fiction version of the Handmaid’s Tale, though.

 

[Vol8188]

24 weeks isn’t arbitrary, it is my formulated opinion on roughly when life begins. I’ve been part of thousands of births (many have moved me to tears) and thousands of D&C procedures. I’ve seen many things happen in countless scenarios. Even though I feel like I’ve seen it all, I am not going to force my belief onto anyone else that life begins at 24ish weeks. You’re welcome to believe it begins at conception, or birth, or any time in-between. Try to instill those values in your loved ones if you feel so convicted. Please do.

The difference is my stance allows people to disagree, while many on here want to deny that freedom of thought and choice. If that’s the country you want to live in, great. I’m not keen on a non-fiction version of the Handmaid’s Tale, though.

Didn't you just tell me you do not support abortion past viability? If so, are you not proclaiming that you would want to force your view onto others of that?

Or are you claiming their should be no restrictions on abortion? You can't have it both ways:

Option 1: there is a standard and restrictions are enforced on others.

Option 2: there is no standard and late term abortions are allowed under any scenario.

 

[NCFisher]

A couple of random thoughts.

First, I think we'd all agree that while long guns can be used to kill humans its going to be a far lower proportion of total gun violence than are handguns. If someone uses a long gun it was probably a planned killing. Handguns might be resorted to in a panic, in a robbery gone bad, in a drug deal gone bad, etc.

Second, any of the gun proponents on this board take pride in how careful they are to prevent their guns from being misused or stolen. They then dismiss complaints about society at large not being that good about this issue.

The problem I have is that there are plenty of gun owners out there not nearly as responsible as the board members might be. Now the board members who claim they are responsible don't want to be "penalized" for the lack of effort by their less responsible counterparts. Ok. But that doesn't fix the problem.

It's not a fixable problem. Even with life imprisonment or the death penalty looming for unjust killing of another, we still have murder. What greater disincentive can be proffered for murder, being slowly drawn and quartered, or flayed alive and rolled in salt?

Annually a third of murders are not committed with firearms. That stat stands out among Western counterparts even aside from gun violence. Canada is often a comparison nation for control advocates/prohibitionists. Canada also has a higher rate of gun violence than Euro Western nations. Over 1/2 of U.S. murders annually are by black offenders; blacks are less than 14% of the population. Black Canadians are also grossly overrepresented in crime and are less than 4% of the population. American Hispanics/Latinos are criminal offenders at a rate higher than white Americans but considerably less than black Americans. They are a barely visible population in Canada. There, as here, Asians are underrepresented in crime statistics and are a larger percentage of the Canadian population than in the U.S.

While not fixable, if we wish to reduce crime we have to acknowledge the demographic distinctions which indicate where to apply a tourniquet and where to stick a band-aid. Being color, culturally, or ethnic blind is an impediment to violence reduction, not a multicultural benefit.

 

[tim]

It's amazing how the right claims to stand up for individual rights but then passes a law that forces women to bear the children of rapists.

Literally .01%. I’m sure I would make an exception in these extremely rare instances