I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

#876
#876
hog88 said:
That is not what he is saying. He is saying the standard to convict someone of any crime is no reasonable doubt and we still get it wrong. The problem with the death penalty is if we get it wrong and the sentence is carried out the state just killed an innocent person.
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Well...kinda, only in Texas who has the fast lane. I believe every other state that still has the death penalty averages more than 10 years...some double that....before anyone is ever actually killed. In those time frames...a person has years and years to research, appeal repeatedly to higher courts, have advocate groups (many) provide pro bono legal work seeking to free them...etc etc ad nauseum.

I agree with part of how you feel Hog. No innocent man should ever be killed by the state. In 1800s where a judge comvicted you tuesday and by friday you were strung up in town square these things make much more sense. Now with years of time...DNA evidence, gunshot/bullet/weapon matching, crimescene science breakthrus like blood spatter and detection etc, the fact that there are cameras on every street corner in many places as well as in every citizens hands...dude it is MUCH MUCH harder for someone to ever be wrongly convicted or set up for murder these days. Also much easier than ever before for a person to establish an alibi or prove their innocence. Technology.

There are cameras on buildings, stoplights, bridges and overpasses, in every store and most other businesses, and even in many homes. I pass thru at least a dozen cameras in the 15min drive to work....each and every one of which could prove i wasn't somewhere else murdering someone. Cameras are just 1 type of new tech that can help prove a persons innocence. Smartphones and computers can also establish where a person was at any given time within a meter or 2.

I just dont think truly innocent people are getting convicted of murder these days man. It is 1000 times easier to prove your innocence than it was even 20 years ago due to technology advances among other factors. I just think a wrongful death sentence is a 1 in a million, more likely to get struck by ĺightning type of risk.
 
#877
#877
PKT_VOL said:
It is quite striking. I haven't met one human who has convinced me that they honestly believe a zygote has personhood.

I would also like to point out that I am next level evil by participating in the IVF process.
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Log time, no see bro.

Why would IVF ever be evil? I am stumped
 
#878
#878
marcusluvsvols said:
Well...kinda, only in Texas who has the fast lane. I believe every other state that still has the death penalty averages more than 10 years...some double that....before anyone is ever actually killed. In those time frames...a person has years and years to research, appeal repeatedly to higher courts, have advocate groups (many) provide pro bono legal work seeking to free them...etc etc ad nauseum.

I agree with part of how you feel Hog. No innocent man should ever be killed by the state. In 1800s where a judge comvicted you tuesday and by friday you were strung up in town square these things make much more sense. Now with years of time...DNA evidence, gunshot/bullet/weapon matching, crimescene science breakthrus like blood spatter and detection etc, the fact that there are cameras on every street corner in many places as well as in every citizens hands...dude it is MUCH MUCH harder for someone to ever be wrongly convicted or set up for murder these days. Also much easier than ever before for a person to establish an alibi or prove their innocence. Technology.

There are cameras on buildings, stoplights, bridges and overpasses, in every store and most other businesses, and even in many homes. I pass thru at least a dozen cameras in the 15min drive to work....each and every one of which could prove i wasn't somewhere else murdering someone. Cameras are just 1 type of new tech that can help prove a persons innocence. Smartphones and computers can also establish where a person was at any given time within a meter or 2.

I just dont think truly innocent people are getting convicted of murder these days man. It is 1000 times easier to prove your innocence than it was even 20 years ago due to technology advances among other factors. I just think a wrongful death sentence is a 1 in a million, more likely to get struck by ĺightning type of risk.
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1 in a million is still to big of a risk for an innocent person to face the ultimate penalty. And let's face facts, if the state wants to convict you you are getting convicted unless you are wealthy enough do your own testing and hire experts.
 
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#879
#879
marcusluvsvols said:
Log time, no see bro.
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Our football, basketball, and baseball finally not being embarrassing brought me out of the shadows.

marcusluvsvols said:
Why would IVF ever be evil? I am stumped
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If one buys the theory of zygotes equating to personhood, I intentionally created persons with the full knowledge that some, if not most, would be eventually destroyed. Let's not mention the fact that I subjected them to DNA testing and cryofreezing against their will. Pretty evil stuff if they are persons.
 
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#881
#881
PKT_VOL said:
It is quite striking. I haven't met one human who has convinced me that they honestly believe a zygote has personhood.

I would also like to point out that I am next level evil by participating in the IVF process.
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That's because they can't actually truly believe it.
I hope the process had a successful outcome.
 
#882
#882
hog88 said:
1 in a million is still to big of a risk for an innocent person to face the ultimate penalty. And let's face facts, if the state wants to convict you you are getting convicted unless you are wealthy enough do your own testing and hire experts.
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So let's agree that we have no knowledge of the point that life truly begins, would you agree with that?

I assume you would. There is still a chance that life begins at conception. Why is that chance not worth protecting an innocent life but someone involved in a trial being innocent is? That's incredibly inconsistent, on principle.
 
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#883
#883
utvols88 said:
So let's agree that we have no knowledge of the point that life truly begins, would you agree with that?

I assume you would. There is still a chance that life begins at conception. Why is that chance not worth protecting an innocent life but someone involved in a trial being innocent is? That's incredibly inconsistent, on principle.
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I’ll agree that life starts bursting forth at the moment of conception, and still argue that the two aren’t comparable.
 
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#884
#884
utvols88 said:
So let's agree that we have no knowledge of the point that life truly begins, would you agree with that?

I assume you would. There is still a chance that life begins at conception. Why is that chance not worth protecting an innocent life but someone involved in a trial being innocent is? That's incredibly inconsistent, on principle.
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I think it's pretty well settled that life begins when cells start dividing.

I can't say it enough, I'm 100% against abortion. The difference to me is when a woman aborts her child that's on her, when the state executes someone it's on us. I don't want to be associated with either.
 
#886
#886
hog88 said:
I think it's pretty well settled that life begins when cells start dividing.

I can't say it enough, I'm 100% against abortion. The difference to me is when a woman aborts her child that's on her, when the state executes someone it's on us. I don't want to be associated with either.
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Both are on us as we provide the venue for both to occur as a society.
 
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#889
#889
Tennessee General Assembly Overwhelmingly Approves Legislation Banning Local Education Associations or Public Charter Schools from Doing Business with Entities That Perform Abortions

The Tennessee General Assembly overwhelmingly passed legislation banning local education associations or public charter schools from doing business with entities that perform abortions.

The state Senate passed the bill, 27-5, on April 11. The state House approved the legislation on March 7, 70-21. In total, 97 members of the Tennessee General Assembly voted in favor and 26 voted against.

Tennessee General Assembly Overwhelmingly Approves Legislation Banning Local Education Associations or Public Charter Schools from Doing Business with Entities That Perform Abortions - Tennessee Star
 
#891
#891
utvols88 said:
We sure do. In the same way we would if we allowed slavery. No you don't have a slave but it's on the individual that has them is not a great argument. Abortions take away the right of a person to life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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If the State outlawed abortion tomorrow, could I still get one?
 
#892
#892
creekdipper said:
Thus the "no doubt" rule. Heck, we already have mitigating circumstances, plea bargaining, different categories based upon premeditation, lesser charges filed due to less compelling evidence, Alford pleas, etc.

Why not have a "super category" forcapital cases? It's not as though tbe legal system doesn't already have many levels of charges and sentencing discretion within guidelines.
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What could the difference(s) be between reasonable doubt and no doubt? It's not apparent.
But anyway why go through such gymnastics just to be able to execute someone? I don't get the blood lust. Sure there are some whose absence would make the world a better place. But sealing them away in maximum security for life serves the same purpose, and keeps open the possibility of fixing wrongful convictions.
 
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#893
#893
creekdipper said:
In your mind, is there ever any situation in which there is no doubt as to the identity of the criminal? Not just "no reasonable doubt." No doubt.

Did Sirhan Sirhan kill Robert F. Kennedy? Did Jack Ruby shoot Oswald? Did Adolph Hitler commit war crimes?
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RFK Jr says no to the first question.
 
#896
#896
EasternVol said:
What could the difference(s) be between reasonable doubt and no doubt? It's not apparent.
But anyway why go through such gymnastics just to be able to execute someone? I don't get the blood lust. Sure there are some whose absence would make the world a better place. But sealing them away in maximum security for life serves the same purpose, and keeps open the possibility of fixing wrongful convictions.
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If I told you the odds of the accused not being the donor of the genetic profile in question were 1 in 447,000,000

Beyond a reasonable doubt?
Beyond any and all doubt?
 
#897
#897
utvols88 said:
We sure do. In the same way we would if we allowed slavery. No you don't have a slave but it's on the individual that has them is not a great argument. Abortions take away the right of a person to life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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It doesn't.
But outlawing abortion certainly takes away the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness from millions of women.
 
#900
#900
85SugarVol said:
If I told you the odds of the accused not being the donor of the genetic profile in question were 1 in 447,000,000

Beyond a reasonable doubt?
Beyond any and all doubt?
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That would be no doubt in practice, but then there's the question of accuracy.
 
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