John Bolton: Swamp Creature

#76
#76
NorthDallas40 said:
Nope probably not. But it was available to him to do so thus he would have been stupid not to do so no? It doesn’t make him a coward and it damn sure is not draft dodging. He did not ignore a summons.

You really REALLY want to infer more on his Guard service than is really there.
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Doesn't matter, he achieved the same end result.
 
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#77
#77
evillawyer said:
All true, but none of your points show that he was anything other than a cowardly hypocrite who abided by the law.
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Incorrect. You’re inferring coward and desperately want to sell it. And yeah he did abide by the law. That doesn’t make him a coward.
 
#82
#82
NorthDallas40 said:
Incorrect. You’re inferring coward and desperately want to sell it. And yeah he did abide by the law. That doesn’t make him a coward.
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1. Bolton supported the Vietnam war. That entails that he thought it should be fought.
2. Believing that the war should be fought, Bolton could have volunteered or let himself be drafted. He did neither. Instead he took the (admittedly legal) option of joining the national guard, knowing that it would make it highly unlikely for him to go to Vietnam.

So, he effectively thought that the war was justified but that he (despite being patriotic and able-bodied) should not have to fight it. Maybe that's cowardly behavior, maybe it's not. We can disagree on that. But I think we can agree that that behavior is not exactly virtuous.
 
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#83
#83
evillawyer said:
He just got lucky and "got in there" / won

I think that's what ever American male thinks about Trump and Stormy and the Playboy model.
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But, as they say, "you gotta be good to be lucky" ...

... or HAVE MONEY ... hahahah :birgits_giggle:
 
#84
#84
Rasputin_Vol said:
I said I would give Trump some time before I made any kind of assessment on him, but I've seen enough now to know that there really isn't much difference between him and Hillary.
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They are all the ****ing same!

He / they got the taxes for the rich reduced now, and drastically at that ... He is / they are happy now.

Smooth sailing ahead from now on ... and whatever happens "on the side" - happen.
 
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#85
#85
evillawyer said:
The criticism is based on their hypocrisy. They're all pro war now, but when given the chance to serve they weaseled out. But if the person is anti-war now, there's no hypocrisy if they were anti-war in the Vietnam era.
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You don't know what you're talking about. The conclusion you draw is pure d BS and you only make it out of ignorance and malice because you are politically posturing. You are a poser.

In October of 1972, I was one of the last Combat Medics between the DMZ south to DaNang. There were other medics in the north country, but they were either with the 95th Evac down at the airbase, a few left to fly Dustoff, etc. At that time there were very few ground pounders left.

There were to be no combat forces left in country within a matter of weeks.

..."U.S. military draft ends, Jan. 27, 1973. On the day in 1973, as the Vietnam War drew to a close, the Selective Service announced that there would be no further draft calls.Jan 27, 2012."...

..."March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam"...

I was there because I lost my college deferment because I had to drop out so I could work two jobs, summer and fall, for tuition to stay in school. This broke the "hours per year enrolled" rule to maintain the deferrment. Make NO mistake, if one had dreams of a college degree back then, they DID get a college deferrment if they qualified. Yes, there were even then those who volunteered, but the VOLAR (Volunteer Army) was not instituted until the draft was halted. Pay was penury. If you lost your deferrment many joined the branch of their choice. Mostly the Guard or Coast Guard, but many also chose Air Force and Navy. Towards the end very, very few would have opted Army or Marines for exactly the reasons Bolton gives. Every single platoon would have had many draftees who lost some kind of derfrrment or other.

We weren't trying to win, really. Nixon had Kissinger in the Paris Peace talks, they had already started the drawdown, and everyone knew it was a matter time. My division lost men to VC 122mm rockets we KNEW were being set up but could not get permission to engage.

Those coming home were met in airports, not by a grateful populace but by spitting protestors calling them murderers and baby killers. We all knew this was going to happen to us because those who preceeded us sent us letters from home. I don't know any soldier who served in Nam I have ever talked to while there or since coming home who begrudged college deferrments or joining the guard. Calling them, including Trump and Bolton, draft dodgers is malicious BS political posturing and should only make those who have understanding have even less regard for the posers position than before they made it.
 
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#88
#88
1972 Grad said:
What gets me is that the people criticizing Bolton and Trump for not going to Vietnam are a bunch of liberals who would have been out protesting, burning their draft cards, and would have gone to Canada.
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Luckily for me I was just outside of the draft, my two older brothers on the other hand were not. My father was a career Army officer and came back from Vietnam in 1969. My oldest brother skirted the draft because of flat feet, my next oldest brother hit the jackpot on the draft lottery at #3.
My father told my younger brother that he better join the Air Force if he wanted to live. I suspect my father saw some horrible things to give that kind of advice to my brother. My brother enlisted in the Air Force and still ended up in Viet Nam. He survived but didn't have to shoot a gun to do it.
My father served in 3 wars. He served his country as did my grandfathers, uncles and brother. 1972 grad has a great point. ******* are born everyday and perpetuate.
 
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#91
#91
VolStrom said:
Luckily for me I was just outside of the draft, my two older brothers on the other hand were not. My father was a career Army officer and came back from Vietnam in 1969. My oldest brother skirted the draft because of flat feet, my next oldest brother hit the jackpot on the draft lottery at #3.
My father told my younger brother that he better join the Air Force if he wanted to live. I suspect my father saw some horrible things to give that kind of advice to my brother. My brother enlisted in the Air Force and still ended up in Viet Nam. He survived but didn't have to shoot a gun to do it.
My father served in 3 wars. He served his country as did my grandfathers, uncles and brother. 1972 grad has a great point. ******* are born everyday and perpetuate.
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All that I know is that I was prime draft age, and would have pulled any legal string available to me to avoid going to Vietnam. I lived on a floor with about 40 other guys, and we all had several discussions about it.


If one wasn't alive then, and subjected to watching the war in his living room every night, and didn't have childhood or school friends who went over in one piece, and came back in a body bag, then they shouldn't judge.
 
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#92
#92
1972 Grad said:
All that I know is that I was prime draft age, and would have pulled any legal string available to me to avoid going to Vietnam. I lived on a floor with about 40 other guys, and we all had several discussions about it.


If one wasn't alive then, and subjected to watching the war in his living room every night, and didn't have childhood or school friends who went over in one piece, and came back in a body bag, then they shouldn't judge.
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I am too young to have a relevant voice and have tried to stay quiet on that dialog. But my oldest brother served. And I know he would have had no issue with any individual using the means available to them to avoid conscription and Vietnam service. I know that for a fact.
 
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#93
#93
NorthDallas40 said:
I am too young to have a relevant voice and have tried to stay quiet on that dialog. But my oldest brother served. And I know he would have had no issue with any individual using the means available to them to avoid conscription and Vietnam service. I know that for a fact.
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We all had discussions about the war. There were only one or two who said they would go to Canada. I had decided to serve if I was drafted, but try to go Air Force or the Guard if I could get in.

I wound up getting a high enough draft number when it was winding down, but I had a student deferment anyway. My brother joined the Navy Reserve after he graduated and his deferment ended.
 
#94
#94
1972 Grad said:
We all had discussions about the war. There were only one or two who said they would go to Canada. I had decided to serve if I was drafted, but try to go Air Force or the Guard if I could get in.

I wound up getting a high enough draft number when it was winding down, but I had a student deferment anyway. My brother joined the Navy Reserve after he graduated and his deferment ended.
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My oldest brother wound up volunteering for US Army and volunteering for Vietnam if that’s possible. (Its a long story ). He did what he was obligated to do by his own commitments. And he did not sit in judgement on others who came to a different answer. I know this as fact we talked about it. He said his view was fairly common and backs up what you are saying. But those are his words not mine and I have no right to offer any opinion on top of them.

Our father was career military. Fought in WWII and served after as career Air Force. His expectations of his sons was simple. Object you may but participate lawfully you must. Nothing else was an option.
 
#95
#95
NorthDallas40 said:
My oldest brother wound up volunteering for US Army and volunteering for Vietnam if that’s possible. (Its a long story ). He did what he was obligated to do by his own commitments. And he did not sit in judgement on others who came to a different answer. I know this as fact we talked about it. He said his view was fairly common and backs up what you are saying. But those are his words not mine and I have no right to offer any opinion on top of them.

Our father was career military. Fought in WWII and served after as career Air Force. His expectations of his sons was simple. Object you may but participate lawfully you must. Nothing else was an option.
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What year did he go in? I think the number of volunteers probably wasn't too high by 1970.
 
#97
#97
1972 Grad said:
All that I know is that I was prime draft age, and would have pulled any legal string available to me to avoid going to Vietnam. I lived on a floor with about 40 other guys, and we all had several discussions about it.


If one wasn't alive then, and subjected to watching the war in his living room every night, and didn't have childhood or school friends who went over in one piece, and came back in a body bag, then they shouldn't judge.
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No, you totally miss the point.

If you or anyone from that era was not willing to fight in a meaningless war back then, then why in the hell would these very same people be more than willing to send teenagers halfway around to the world to fight another meaningless war today?

Nobody is making a judgement about wanting to avoid going to Vietnam. Most people agree with not fighting that war. But for someone who did everything in their power (legally or illegally) to avoid combat in Vietnam to now send troops to the Middle East in yet another dumpster fire conflict is despicable and hypocritical.
 
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#98
#98
NorthDallas40 said:
I am too young to have a relevant voice and have tried to stay quiet on that dialog. But my oldest brother served. And I know he would have had no issue with any individual using the means available to them to avoid conscription and Vietnam service. I know that for a fact.
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You miss the point. It isn't about avoiding the conflict in Vietnam.

It is about avoiding the conflict in Vietnam AND seeing nothing wrong with sending teenagers today into a quagmire in the Middle East... or anywhere else where there is a meaningless conflict.
 
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#99
#99
Rasputin_Vol said:
You miss the point. It isn't about avoiding the conflict in Vietnam.

It is about avoiding the conflict in Vietnam AND seeing nothing wrong with sending teenagers today into a quagmire in the Middle East... or anywhere else where there is a meaningless conflict.
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**** off Ras.
 
#100
#100
Rasputin_Vol said:
No, you totally miss the point.

If you or anyone from that era was not willing to fight in a meaningless war back then, then why in the hell would these very same people be more than willing to send teenagers halfway around to the world to fight another meaningless war today?

Nobody is making a judgement about wanting to avoid going to Vietnam. Most people agree with not fighting that war. But for someone who did everything in their power (legally or illegally) to avoid combat in Vietnam to now send troops to the Middle East in yet another dumpster fire conflict is despicable and hypocritical.
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I wouldn't want to send troops into a needless war, but it's not my call. It all depends upon the definition of needless.

I was against going into Iraq at the time based on what limited information that I had seen. I had discussions with a friend about it back then. We decided that the Bush administration apparently knew something that we didn't. We were wrong.
 
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