John Brice - Rick Barnes Extended, $5.9 Million

[VolFreakJosh]

I can contextualize just fine, its the sunshine pumpers like yourself that cannot. What would Fulky have done? Dude has been here for 5 years and has one 15 game stretch where he looked like a difference maker. The other 4.5 years he has been an oft injured energy role player. Guess what, he is already injured again. Please tell me we aren't trying to make Fulky a thing again...

Furthermore, it is about Rick Barnes entire career, not just one season or one coaching stop. If you want to make it about his UT career though, the best team he may every have here won 3 NCAA tourney games over 2 years. Barnes has the worst record in college basketball history against higher seeds in the tourney (among coaches who have 10 more more games). His teams average has been a 5 seed and as a 5 seed or lower he is 4-12 in round 1 for his career. Of coaches that have coached 30+ years at P5 schools, I believe he is the only one with a losing record in the NCAA tourney.

I think he is great at recruiting, culture building, and regular season success. I think he raises the floor of any program he goes to. I can readily admit that because it is painfully obvious in his long history. Why do you and others struggle to admit his shortcomings and issues in March when they are literally smacking you in the face? Projections (well good ones anyway) are based off of evidence. Please tell me what I'm missing here.

Winning a National Title consists a lot of luck involved and the ball bouncing your way.

If that’s what you’re basing his success on then clearly you don’t pay attention to college basketball in general.

 

[cncchris33]

I would say the shot at the end of the game by Loyola in 2017 was a bad bounce. I would say the foul at the end of the Purdue game was a 50-50 call. I don't think anyone can even argue with that.

And if either of those bounce the other way, Tennessee and Barnes have another E8, perhaps a F4, and the narrative that Barnes is an awful postseason coach has a new wrinkle to iron out.

Scott Drew was considered a poor postseason coach, too, until he suddenly wasn't one. It's amazing what can happen when opportunity meets preparation.

I get the narrative, but it is just so flaky because it can be reversed in an instant, and many times, that requires things to bounce your way. Scott Drew didn't suddenly become a better coach in the postseason. The chips just fell perfectly in place. He may never win another one. I'm fine with the idea that Barnes isn't a great postseason coach and I'm also fine with the idea that it may take a stroke of luck for him to win a title or reach a F4 at Tennessee. He has made basketball fun to watch, he's recruited at the highest level in program history, he's a good dude and runs a relatively clean program, and kids want to play for him and coaches want to learn under him. All those things culminate in the opportunity of postseason play, and perhaps, with a stroke of luck, we can break thru under Papaw before he retires. If not, the job is awfully attractive to his replacement.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I can contextualize just fine, its the sunshine pumpers like yourself that cannot. What would Fulky have done? Dude has been here for 5 years and has one 15 game stretch where he looked like a difference maker. The other 4.5 years he has been an oft injured energy role player. Guess what, he is already injured again. Please tell me we aren't trying to make Fulky a thing again...

Furthermore, it is about Rick Barnes entire career, not just one season or one coaching stop. If you want to make it about his UT career though, the best team he may every have here won 3 NCAA tourney games over 2 years. Barnes has the worst record in college basketball history against higher seeds in the tourney (among coaches who have 10 more more games). His teams average has been a 5 seed and as a 5 seed or lower he is 4-12 in round 1 for his career. Of coaches that have coached 30+ years at P5 schools, I believe he is the only one with a losing record in the NCAA tourney.

I think he is great at recruiting, culture building, and regular season success. I think he raises the floor of any program he goes to. I can readily admit that because it is painfully obvious in his long history. Why do you and others struggle to admit his shortcomings and issues in March when they are literally smacking you in the face? Projections (well good ones anyway) are based off of evidence. Please tell me what I'm missing here.

Since you are cherry picking, Barnes was one-and-done 5x at Providence and Clemson plus in 2 of his first 3 at Texas. So there is 0-7 from his NCAA record. None of those three programs had much history… just making the field was quite an accomplishment for 2 of them. Barnes owns 1 of Clemson’s 3 (non-vacated) Sweet 16s EVER. He’s the only coach to EVER take Clemson to 3 consecutive NCAATs. CRB was also the Providence coach when they won one of their two conference tournament titles EVER. He also has 16 of Texas’s 35 ever NCAAT appearances.

Yea, he’s a bad coach. No way high level players will ever follow that loser to TN.

 

[SGMVols]

And if either of those bounce the other way, Tennessee and Barnes have another E8, perhaps a F4, and the narrative that Barnes is an awful postseason coach has a new wrinkle to iron out.

Scott Drew was considered a poor postseason coach, too, until he suddenly wasn't one. It's amazing what can happen when opportunity meets preparation.

I get the narrative, but it is just so flaky because it can be reversed in an instant, and many times, that requires things to bounce your way.

I often say that while I believe college basketball has the most exciting postseason in American sports, it also has the worst method of determining a champion. There’s too much luck involved in basketball for a single elimination tournament to be an accurate way to assess the best team. There’s a reason why the NBA uses a series format. It’s because high level basketball was meant to be a series sport. You almost always end up with the true best team winning as a result.

 

[cncchris33]

I often say that while I believe college basketball has the most exciting postseason in American sports, it also has the worst method of determining a champion. There’s too much luck involved in basketball for a single elimination tournament to be an accurate way to assess the best team. There’s a reason why the NBA uses a series format. It’s because high level basketball was meant to be a series sport. You almost always end up with the true best team winning as a result.

It is why I refuse to just entirely dismiss the regular season.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

And if either of those bounce the other way, Tennessee and Barnes have another E8, perhaps a F4, and the narrative that Barnes is an awful postseason coach has a new wrinkle to iron out.

Scott Drew was considered a poor postseason coach, too, until he suddenly wasn't one. It's amazing what can happen when opportunity meets preparation.

I get the narrative, but it is just so flaky because it can be reversed in an instant, and many times, that requires things to bounce your way. Scott Drew didn't suddenly become a better coach in the postseason. The chips just fell perfectly in place. He may never win another one. I'm fine with the idea that Barnes isn't a great postseason coach and I'm also fine with the idea that it may take a stroke of luck for him to win a title or reach a F4 at Tennessee. He has made basketball fun to watch, he's recruited at the highest level in program history, he's a good dude and runs a relatively clean program, and kids want to play for him and coaches want to learn under him. All those things culminate in the opportunity of postseason play, and perhaps, with a stroke of luck, we can break thru under Papaw before he retires. If not, the job is awfully attractive to his replacement.

Extremely well said…I’ve long mentioned that first part and said it just doesn’t make sense in those who are far in one direction criticizing him and declaring he can’t/won’t get it done. If a ref makes a no call and that shot doesn’t drop by their own definitions Rick Barnes suddenly goes from a washed up stubborn old coach to an amazing coach who’s got this thing rolling…that’s pretty damn foolish to be willing to swing that far based on a refs whistle and a ball bouncing that hit every damn part of the rim and backboard before dropping.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

And if either of those bounce the other way, Tennessee and Barnes have another E8, perhaps a F4, and the narrative that Barnes is an awful postseason coach has a new wrinkle to iron out.

Scott Drew was considered a poor postseason coach, too, until he suddenly wasn't one. It's amazing what can happen when opportunity meets preparation.

I get the narrative, but it is just so flaky because it can be reversed in an instant, and many times, that requires things to bounce your way. Scott Drew didn't suddenly become a better coach in the postseason. The chips just fell perfectly in place. He may never win another one. I'm fine with the idea that Barnes isn't a great postseason coach and I'm also fine with the idea that it may take a stroke of luck for him to win a title or reach a F4 at Tennessee. He has made basketball fun to watch, he's recruited at the highest level in program history, he's a good dude and runs a relatively clean program, and kids want to play for him and coaches want to learn under him. All those things culminate in the opportunity of postseason play, and perhaps, with a stroke of luck, we can break thru under Papaw before he retires. If not, the job is awfully attractive to his replacement.

Yeah, that's exactly how I interpreted both Baylor and Tech in ZJC's examples the other day.

I also say again that the whole debate is a good one, but I can't see past the oddly proportioned weights of regular season vs post season from the posters who are probably not giving Barnes enough credit.

 

[SGMVols]

There have been multiple people breakdown his outdated offense, both here and elsewhere. Specifically his affinity for the elbow jumper and lack of spacing within his motion offense. The same motion offense (which is a version of the flex offense) that he has run for decades. The shots the offense seems to gravitate toward are considered some of the worst shots analytically.

His offense has been stale and only been above average here when he had Grant and Admiral to dump the ball to and bail him out late in the shot clock.

But again, mention anything negative about Barnes at all and you're an idiot. Even though much of this is verifiable by a basic Google search.

The Phoenix Suns take mid range jumpers all the time and they’re about to go to the NBA Finals. I’ll be sure to let them know their offense is dumb and outdated though

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

I can contextualize just fine, its the sunshine pumpers like yourself that cannot. What would Fulky have done? Dude has been here for 5 years and has one 15 game stretch where he looked like a difference maker. The other 4.5 years he has been an oft injured energy role player. Guess what, he is already injured again. Please tell me we aren't trying to make Fulky a thing again...

Furthermore, it is about Rick Barnes entire career, not just one season or one coaching stop. If you want to make it about his UT career though, the best team he may every have here won 3 NCAA tourney games over 2 years. Barnes has the worst record in college basketball history against higher seeds in the tourney (among coaches who have 10 more more games). His teams average has been a 5 seed and as a 5 seed or lower he is 4-12 in round 1 for his career. Of coaches that have coached 30+ years at P5 schools, I believe he is the only one with a losing record in the NCAA tourney.

I think he is great at recruiting, culture building, and regular season success. I think he raises the floor of any program he goes to. I can readily admit that because it is painfully obvious in his long history. Why do you and others struggle to admit his shortcomings and issues in March when they are literally smacking you in the face? Projections (well good ones anyway) are based off of evidence. Please tell me what I'm missing here.

Please cite your best evidence that I am a sunshine pumper (hint: you can't). Please make your best argument that TN basketball is not in the best position since Pearl (hint: you can't).

#byebye

 

[VolArmy74]

It is what it is at this point. Does Barnes deserve a raise after two not good seasons in a row, with it unlikely anyone is offering him 6 million a season to leave here? Not really, but that's the way it goes on Rocky Top, we reward very marginal successes in every sport.

I do wonder at what some of our fans want from the program. It seems like not very much beyond some happy times in January and on signing day. At what point does signing top 5 classes need to translate into post season success? Ever?

Hopefully Barnes can translate that top talent to something noteworthy in March. If not, maybe the next coach, whenever he/she arrives, can get the ball to bounce the right way in the post-season.

 

[Volprofch05]

It is what it is at this point. Does Barnes deserve a raise after two not good seasons in a row, with it unlikely anyone is offering him 6 million a season to leave here? Not really, but that's the way it goes on Rocky Top, we reward very marginal successes in every sport.

I do wonder at what some of our fans want from the program. It seems like not very much beyond some happy times in January and on signing day. At what point does signing top 5 classes need to translate into post season success? Ever?

Hopefully Barnes can translate that top talent to something noteworthy in March. If not, maybe the next coach, whenever he/she arrives, can get the ball to bounce the right way in the post-season.

According to rivals, our first top-5 class under Barnes is the 2021 class, so we should let them actually arrive on campus before we expect a championship

 

[Catbone]

There have been multiple people breakdown his outdated offense, both here and elsewhere. Specifically his affinity for the elbow jumper and lack of spacing within his motion offense. The same motion offense (which is a version of the flex offense) that he has run for decades. The shots the offense seems to gravitate toward are considered some of the worst shots analytically.

His offense has been stale and only been above average here when he had Grant and Admiral to dump the ball to and bail him out late in the shot clock.

But again, mention anything negative about Barnes at all and you're an idiot. Even though much of this is verifiable by a basic Google search.

Bump again for truth.

 

[Vols8086]

The Phoenix Suns take mid range jumpers all the time and they’re about to go to the NBA Finals. I’ll be sure to let them know their offense is dumb and outdated though

Thats not the crux of their offense. If you think their offense resembles ours in the slightest then I dont even know what to tell you. Nice try kid.

 

[Vols8086]

Please cite your best evidence that I am a sunshine pumper (hint: you can't). Please make your best argument that TN basketball is not in the best position since Pearl (hint: you can't).

#byebye

Tell me where I argued against the program being good right now? One criticism that is warranted doesn't mean I think he is awful. Then again, today's society can't handle any truth. Its sad really. I even pointed out 3 things in the post I think he excels out. Try harder to read and comprehend and not get triggered immediately.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Tell me where I argued against the program being good right now? One criticism that is warranted doesn't mean I think he is awful. Then again, today's society can't handle any truth. Its sad really. I even pointed out 3 things in the post I think he excels out. Try harder to read and comprehend and not get triggered immediately.

So you can't point out how I am a sunshine pumper...got it. Also, playing the "triggered" card is pretty weak...we are having a measured and reasonable exchange - maybe you should avoid message boards if that is really your take on this.

Having said all that, you and I are seemingly not too far off in our assessments. CRB is a great coach who has elevated our program to historic heights while still being imperfect. I have acknowledged the post-season disappointments in the past but I also temper it with context (e.g., not having Fulky this past tourney). Instead of being placing all the weight on March madness as too many posters seem to do, I look at all facets of the program and our performance and trajectory as you also acknowledged.

 

[hUTch2002]

Extending Barnes is not even close to some of our past stupid football decisions, which I assume is what you are referring to. Pruitt and Butch did not deserve their extensions in hindsight, but let's not try and compare those decisions to anything close to Barnes. Not to mention Barnes has completely repaired the image of Tennessee Basketball, which goes a long way when our football program is a complete disaster.

Neither Pruitt nor Butch came close to sniffing an SEC East title, let alone a regular season conference championship like Barnes. Neither Pruitt nor Butch took their team to No. 1 overall for 5-weeks. Neither Pruitt nor Butch has an accomplishment similar to a Sweet-16 or a 30-win season. Our football decisions have been uniquely stupid for almost 15 years. Basketball is not even close.

To be fair, Butch sniffed an East title and then proceeded to sh1t all over it.

 

[Cosmo Kramer]

After Butch Peed down his leg

 

[VolArmy74]

According to rivals, our first top-5 class under Barnes is the 2021 class, so we should let them actually arrive on campus before we expect a championship

According to 247 composite rankings our 2020 class was ranked 5th. According to rivals it was ranked 6th. Need directions to a barber shop if you have any more hairs to split?
The question still stands, at what point does signing top classes matter if you aren't having post season success?

 

[UofMemphis]

Memphis is not paying $6 million for Rick Barnes. They also aren't paying $5 million for Rick Barnes. They probably also would not pay $4 million for him. Penny is making $2.5 million right now. Again, Memphis ain't coming after Rick.

that's because he's worth 50 million dollars and didn't get into coaching for the money. remember ole Tubby had a 9.75 million dollar buyout so Penny agreed to only make 1.3m in year one, 1.6m in year two, 1.9m in year three, and now 2.5m in year four as the 'burden' from OTS's contract wears away.

that said, you are correct Memphis would not pay 5-6 million for Barnes for a several reasons. Rick and Tubby are friends so I doubt he would take a job where his buddy just got fired, if we payed the hoops coach 5-6 million our football coach would demand a raise creating even more spending, and we aren't in the SEC making crazy money. Also, coming off a pandemic where profits plummeted due to closed stadiums/arena it wouldn't be a smart time for us to heap money on a coach.

Tubby was set to make 3.25 million the final 3 years of his contract had we not parted ways.

 

[UofMemphis]

Hardaway is staying anyway.

and he's bringing in HOF'er Larry Brown as Asst Head Coach.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Not getting invited to the NCAAT is not having post season success. Making the SECT semis or better every year is having success.

Lots of things must happen to make the Sweet 16. It’s a single elimination tournament. Most of the top 12 or 13 seeds and better can and do knock out higher seeds every year. Step one is to not regularly miss the tournament entirely.

Coaching is in place. Recruiting is coming together. More veteran players are needed. Favorable seeding is needed. Competent officiating is needed. Sometimes more good luck and less bad luck is needed. Key players need to not be limited or sitting out with injuries.

 

[Volprofch05]

According to 247 composite rankings our 2020 class was ranked 5th. According to rivals it was ranked 6th. Need directions to a barber shop if you have any more hairs to split?
The question still stands, at what point does signing top classes matter if you aren't having post season success?

Here are our 247 comp rankings since RB was hired in 2015:

2015: 60
2016: 49
2017: 54
2018: 120
2019: 28
2020: 5
2021: 3

Your question is "At what point does signing top 5 classes need to translate into post season success"

We've had a grand total of one top-5 class on the floor for one (covid) year. It would probably help if we were more than 3 years removed from the 120th ranked class in the nation. We were a complete mess when Tyndall was fired; that doesn't get fixed overnight.

 

[AngryButchJones]

Here are our 247 comp rankings since RB was hired in 2015:

2015: 60
2016: 49
2017: 54
2018: 120
2019: 28
2020: 5
2021: 3

Your question is "At what point does signing top 5 classes need to translate into post season success"

We've had a grand total of one top-5 class on the floor for one (covid) year. It would probably help if we were more than 3 years removed from the 120th ranked class in the nation. We were a complete mess when Tyndall was fired; that doesn't get fixed overnight.

Incredibly good perspective here.

 

[VolArmy74]

Here are our 247 comp rankings since RB was hired in 2015:

2015: 60
2016: 49
2017: 54
2018: 120
2019: 28
2020: 5
2021: 3

Your question is "At what point does signing top 5 classes need to translate into post season success"

We've had a grand total of one top-5 class on the floor for one (covid) year. It would probably help if we were more than 3 years removed from the 120th ranked class in the nation. We were a complete mess when Tyndall was fired; that doesn't get fixed overnight.

In the one and done era, it actually does get fixed "overnight". That said, this is a career long path for Barnes and it's why people complain. So the question remains, when does post season success or lack of it matter?