John Brice - Rick Barnes Extended, $5.9 Million

[Thunder Good-Oil]

In the one and done era, it actually does get fixed "overnight". That said, this is a career long path for Barnes and it's why people complain. So the question remains, when does post season success or lack of it matter?

How many from the 2021 Elite Eight rosters are one-and-done?

 

[JustWin1]

Frank Martin 9 years at SC - 1 NCAA appearance - 1 final 4

Bruce Pearl 7 years at Auburn - 2 NCAA appearances - 1 final 4

Both those coaches have made a final 4 in the last 9 years but each have an NCAA tournament appearance rate under 30% at their current schools. If either one of those coaches were at UT would you have the same complaint of lack of post season success even with their 1 final 4?

 

[VolArmy74]

Frank Martin 9 years at SC - 1 NCAA appearance - 1 final 4

Bruce Pearl 7 years at Auburn - 2 NCAA appearances - 1 final 4

Both those coaches have made a final 4 in the last 9 years but each have an NCAA tournament appearance rate under 30% at their current schools. If either one of those coaches were at UT would you have the same complaint of lack of post season success even with their 1 final 4?

Pearl was 25-6 when the NCAAT got canceled in 2019-2020. He has more NCAA wins at Auburn, a much worse basketball school historically than UT, in his 2 appearances than Barnes does here. Pearl has been better at Auburn than Barnes has here.

Frank Martin should be fired any day now.

 

[VolArmy74]

How many from the 2021 Elite Eight rosters are one-and-done?

Gonzaga, USC and Arkansas all had elite 1 and done players off the top of my head. There were quite a few second year stars for elite 8 teams as well. The implication that it takes years and years to turn a basketball program around is silly and Barnes himself proved that.

 

[Volprofch05]

In the one and done era, it actually does get fixed "overnight". That said, this is a career long path for Barnes and it's why people complain. So the question remains, when does post season success or lack of it matter?

I personally witnessed some of the cited history seeing as I was a grad student at Texas while Barnes was there. Funny thing is that the knock on Rick at TX was that he couldn't beat Kansas, which seems to be less of a problem now. I did enjoy the Final 4 run with TJ Ford and crew.

I think TN would've been a tough immediate turn-around since we were a laughing stock at the time and the narrative on RB was that he was washed up. It took a while for that narrative to change to, hey this guy can still coach, and since then the trajectory has been better.

This past NCAA tourney was a disappointment, no doubt. However, circumstances such as running into a hot oregon st. squad, lacking a true point guard, and relying on freshman in a year where coaching/development was hindered by covid rules counteracts that a bit. Also, man is it tough to be one of the last 4 standing. A number of my family members went to Duke, and even they haven't been to the Final 4 since 2015, despite their blueblood heritage.

The way RB is recruiting now, if we're not making serious noise in the tourney in the next 1-2 years, then there will be anger. In the meantime, I'm excited about our recent recruiting and will enjoy the ride.

Ultimately, the person who would want RB to leave TN the most is Calipari, which should provide a short-term pick-me-up for all Vol fans!

 

[cncchris33]

Pearl was 25-6 when the NCAAT got canceled in 2019-2020. He has more NCAA wins at Auburn, a much worse basketball school historically than UT, in his 2 appearances than Barnes does here. Pearl has been better at Auburn than Barnes has here.

Frank Martin should be fired any day now.

Pearl has a worse regular season winning %, a worse SEC winning %, and even if you throw him a bone and include the NCAAT appearance he would have gotten in 2020, he has as many appearances as Barnes with one more season to do it.

If Pearl has been better than Barnes, it's been marginally so, and heavily buoyed by the F4 appearance, which was the OP's point.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Gonzaga, USC and Arkansas all had elite 1 and done players off the top of my head. There were quite a few second year stars for elite 8 teams as well. The implication that it takes years and years to turn a basketball program around is silly and Barnes himself proved that.

Jalen Suggs was the only one-and-done on the Final Four All-tournament selections. Suggs and Evan Mobley (a 7 foot freak) were the only one-and-dones of the 20 players on the 4x Regional Finals all-tournament teams.

The implication is that it will take more than one top five class to blow through an NCAAT field unscathed.

 

[SGMVols]

Pearl has a worse regular season winning %, a worse SEC winning %, and even if you throw him a bone and include the NCAAT appearance he would have gotten in 2020, he has as many appearances as Barnes with one more season to do it.

If Pearl has been better than Barnes, it's been marginally so, and heavily buoyed by the F4 appearance, which was the OP's point.

Literally the only reason Pearl has more tournament wins at Auburn than Barnes has at UT is because an 80% FT shooter from New Mexico State choked at the end of the game.

 

[cncchris33]

Literally the only reason Pearl has more tournament wins at Auburn than Barnes has at UT is because an 80% FT shooter from New Mexico State choked at the end of the game.

I had that same thing typed into my above reply, but didn't want to hear the "Coulda, would, shoulda" argument. But, yes, I even noted that very scenario in detail in a previous post in this thread.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Give me till tonight

 

[bleedingTNorange]

You’re stuck in your line of thinking so not sure why I am bothering, but here goes…

How many P5 programs over the last 4 years of 90+ wins, and 3 NCAAT appearances? Tennessee has the results of a Top 10-15 program, they’re viewed that was nationally as well…the postseason success hasn’t happened from a E8 or better standpoint, but it’s not just about that either.

.

 

[zjcvols]

.

Please forgive for not remembering your exact parameters I’m of a question that was two weeks ago.

Either way, we have not been a top 10-15 program over the last four years. One S16 and one regular season conference title (shared mind your) does not constitute elite

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Please forgive for not remembering your exact parameters I’m of a question that was two weeks ago.

Either way, we have not been a top 10-15 program over the last four years. One S16 and one regular season conference title (shared mind your) does not constitute elite

If you wanna say not elite then ok, but it’s clearly Top 15 as I laid out for you…you had to go 6 years to even try and make a case that it wasn’t.

 

[top5vols]

Memphis talent has diminished, since public schools have became charter schools. Most talent at private schools now.

 

[zjcvols]

If you wanna say not elite then ok, but it’s clearly Top 15 as I laid out for you…you had to go 6 years to even try and make a case that it wasn’t.

I bet there are at least 15 schools besides Tennessee that have at least one form of a conference title and a S16 in the last four years. So sure those regular seasons win 3/4 years have been nice, but hasn’t really led to anything meaningful.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I bet there are at least 15 schools besides Tennessee that have at least one form of a conference title and a S16 in the last four years. So sure those regular seasons win 3/4 years have been nice, but hasn’t really led to anything meaningful.

Wait…so you’d take 1/4 good seasons, meaning conference title (shared even) and a S16 and then missing the dance the next 3 years verse what we currently have done? That makes little sense, but ok.

 

[zjcvols]

Barnes is an excellent recruiter, solid developer of talent and gets his guys to buy into defense and rebounding. He runs a clean program, his players are good ambassadors and his reputation is well respected around the country. He’s a good program builder and consistently has top 25 teams. He’s pretty consistent year in and year out. His roots, southern drawl and Christian views also endear him to a significant portion of the fanbase.

But he also has an antiquated view of basketball with an offense that is too simple which good defensive teams can solve and he is too stubborn to change it which is why he’s never accomplished anything in the postseason and flames out early in tournaments his whole career. He’s one won conference tournament in 30 years as a head coach and made one S16 in his last 13 years. He’s continually flamed out in the NCAAT (especially the last decade+) because he won’t adjust to how important ball screens and three pointers are in basketball.

He’s a very good regular season coach. He might be “unlucky” (because that’s the newest excuse for Barnes) recently but you aren’t unlucky for 30 years. He’s perfectly fine as the head basketball coach at Tennessee. He’s overpaid but it’s whatever. It’s not my money. But usually you’re gonna say “nice season but could have done more” at the end.

 

[zjcvols]

P5 plus AAC & BE? List them, please.

Auburn
LSU
Kentucky
Purdue
Michigan
Michigan State
Virginia
Duke
North Carolina
Florida State
Villanova
Creighton
Oregon
Oregon State
Houston
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
Texas Tech

I might have missed a couple

 

[zjcvols]

Wait…so you’d take 1/4 good seasons, meaning conference title (shared even) and a S16 and then missing the dance the next 3 years verse what we currently have done? That makes little sense, but ok.

You didn’t understand what I was saying. We’ve had three good regular seasons but the 1 S16 and co conference title over a four year stretch isn’t impressive.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Auburn
LSU
Kentucky
Purdue
Michigan
Michigan State
Virginia
Duke
North Carolina
Florida State
Villanova
Creighton
Oregon
Oregon State
Houston
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
Texas Tech

I might have missed a couple

So for example you think Oregon State is a better program?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

You didn’t understand what I was saying. We’ve had three good regular seasons but the 1 S16 and co conference title over a four year stretch isn’t impressive.

And I have said our postseason success is behind others, but our regular season success is ahead of many…you seem to want to only look at postseason success for this discussion when 1. That’s not the parameters originally laid out 2. If that’s all you’re looking at you’ll also end up with random teams who just had 1 good run/fluke run.

Jerry Meyer was on Basilio earlier this year talking about how Tennessee is viewed nationally, I don’t remember his exact quote but it was him saying that they’re viewed as a top program nationally among recruits/coaches. I’m sorry if that bothers you or you don’t want to believe it but that’s the case.

Our regular season success of the last 4 years is Top 10, our NCAAT appearances is Top 10, our wins in the NCAAT is lacking…but again you can’t just point to that last part and say well others have won more NCAAT games, but ignore the fact that they maybe have won 20 less games overall or only made 1 NCAAT.

 

[zjcvols]

So for example you think Oregon State is a better program?

I said there are at least 15 programs with the postseason accomplishments of Tennessee and it wasn’t that impressive to have 1x conference title and a S16 in a four year span. You asked for who from P5 plus AAC and BE. I listed 19. You can infer your own opinions from there.

I know you want it to be so true so bad to think what Barnes has done the last four years in totality is magical and really impressive but in reality, while a solid four years…it’s nothing special.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I said there are at least 15 programs with the postseason accomplishments of Tennessee and it wasn’t that impressive to have 1x conference title and a S16 in a four year span. You asked for who from P5 plus AAC and BE. I listed 19. You can infer your own opinions from there.

I know you want it to be so true so bad to think what Barnes has done the last four years in totality is magical and really impressive but in reality, while a solid four years…it’s nothing special.

Like I said, you seem to want to point to a team having 1 good year/run and infer it means something…South Carolina did just that, what’s it mean?

You can try to downplay the 4 year run but it ranks Top 10 nationally in that span, and it seems likely if we include this upcoming year and go to 5 seasons that we will be in even more elite company.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

The program is in great shape. Instead of worrying about making it to the bubble the narrative has changed to how high of a seed they will have.

 

[zjcvols]

And I have said our postseason success is behind others, but our regular season success is ahead of many…you seem to want to only look at postseason success for this discussion when 1. That’s not the parameters originally laid out 2. If that’s all you’re looking at you’ll also end up with random teams who just had 1 good run/fluke run.

Jerry Meyer was on Basilio earlier this year talking about how Tennessee is viewed nationally, I don’t remember his exact quote but it was him saying that they’re viewed as a top program nationally among recruits/coaches. I’m sorry if that bothers you or you don’t want to believe it but that’s the case.

Our regular season success of the last 4 years is Top 10, our NCAAT appearances is Top 10, our wins in the NCAAT is lacking…but again you can’t just point to that last part and say well others have won more NCAAT games, but ignore the fact that they maybe have won 20 less games overall or only made 1 NCAAT.

Because you have a completely different opinion than I do about success in college basketball. You think it’s all regular season and postseason doesn’t really matters. I infer differently. I really don’t care about a 30 win season when there isn’t a conference title or a E8/F4 run or when we keep getting high seeds in the NCAAT but double digit seeds keep beating us early. And it’s been a Barnes staple he isn’t a good tournament coach. We can argue all day about it but unless we are hanging banners then I don’t really care too much about what we do in the regular season. There’s a postseason ceiling with Barnes and those regular seasons are cool but overall it’s gonna leave you disappointed at the end of the year