July Jobs Report

#52
#52
Gramps said:
I was referring to the bamawriter post.
The poor rush to spend their money.
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I should have focused on the middle class, true, but there is a difference between the poor and the poor and stupid. Some folks qualify as "poor" and don't spend wastefully.

Either way, every poor person could spend $500 or $2000 or $5000 from daddy government tomorrow, and it wouldn't boost the economy.
 
#53
#53
BigPapaVol said:
On LGs firm? Driving the consumption economy?
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No not on LG's firm.

I do believe the middle class is the driving force in a good economy.

In the economy we are in now, we have a shrinking middle class and it is shrinking in the wrong direction.

This is no easy fix.

We live in a global economy which is in terrible shape.

Big business is concerned about one thing, the bottom line. That is what they should be focused on.

In order to make more profit, jobs in the US have moved to other countries with lower wages, less taxes and less regulation or they are using temp job services for their workforce in the US in order to save money.

By doing this, the US is losing the middle class. The mfg jobs will not come back, imo. If the corporate taxes are cut to zero. The wages in the US are way to high to be competitive with several other countries.

The middle class is going to have to go into other fields in order to prosper, which means they will need to go back to school or get some type of training, which is a slow process.

I don't care who goes into the WH, if congress continues in the same way it has been, we have no hope. There are major issues facing the USA and all both sides of congess wants to do is bicker and blame the other side. Some tough choices are going to have to be made before things improve.
 
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#54
#54
middle class is shrinking? how is that?

didn't the jobs predate the middle class? how did it come to be without job providers?

global economy has made our view of jobs obsolete and that is the main problem with our middle class. The old lifetime job and the company owes me mindset is finished. If folks can't find ways to be marketable as employees, they'll be left behind in the glut of employee options.

In order to make more profit is why we hire decision makers who look at our employee pool, littered with silly crap like unions and make a pure cost decision to do something else, as they are paid to do.

Agreed that congress is the crux of the issue and the WH just has the power of the press.
 
#55
#55
BigPapaVol said:
middle class is shrinking? how is that?

Could be due to all the millions of people out of work.

didn't the jobs predate the middle class? how did it come to be without job providers?

We can't have a thriving middle class without job providers

global economy has made our view of jobs obsolete and that is the main problem with our middle class. The old lifetime job and the company owes me mindset is finished. If folks can't find ways to be marketable as employees, they'll be left behind in the glut of employee options.


As I stated in last post, the middle class is going to have to go back to school, get retrained in order to get into a different field of work


In order to make more profit is why we hire decision makers who look at our employee pool, littered with silly crap like unions and make a pure cost decision to do something else, as they are paid to do.
As I posted earlier the bottom line is what big business is focused on and should be


Agreed that congress is the crux of the issue and the WH just has the power of the press.

Congress is a joke
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*
 
#56
#56
Just to weigh in a bit. The notion that the jobs situation is purely or even mainly structural and that it is the new normal that no president could have affected is way over done.

There is always structural change; there is always productivity growth; global commerce is actually much smaller than people think (See World 3.0 by Ghemawat for well researched statistics).

The issue is not is there structural change but how flexible the system is to adapting to that change.

The Feds can create a system that eases transition or thwarts it. To date, this administration has focused almost completely on short-term prods to maintain the current system along with a mountain of hindrance and uncertainty about what the rules will be going forward.

I have no doubt we'd be further towards recovery if Team Obama had simply stopped at TARP and possibly a small stimulus for symbolic reasons. Leave energy policy alone, leave healthcare alone, leave environmental regulations alone, leave taxes alone and stop demonizing success.

Structural change is not his fault; creating barriers to adapting to structural change is.
 
#57
#57
again, structural change is one of the few constants that drives every industry. Lamenting structural change as the thief in the night is simply saying "I have no idea which way is up."
 
#59
#59
Why we shouldn't even attempt to practice Keynesian Economic Theory:

1) Free enterprise systems are superior
2) We don't have the discipline to properly execute Keynesian Theory. If you follow the Keynesian playbook, it's really simple: A) In boom periods we are supposed to create surpluses (something congress won't/doesn't do). B) In bust periods we are supposed to relax taxes and increase spending utilizing prior surpluses.

Obama isn't even a Keynesian. There is not really a school of economic thought that would suggest raising taxes in this recession. His only economic objective is to maximize political expediency.
 
#60
#60
When over 50% of Americans are on the dole and you have politicians who can be re-elected over and over again you get what we got here, which is the way they want it, so they got it. I don't like it anymore than you do but sometimes it is what it is.
 
#61
#61
NEOCON said:
When over 50% of Americans are on the dole and you have politicians who can be re-elected over and over again you get what we got here, which is the way they want it, so they got it. I don't like it anymore than you do but sometimes it is what it is.
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Well said Neo.

The sad thing is the same group of politicians will be re-elected in 2012.
 
#62
#62
GAVol said:
Has demand side ever really worked though? Im not debating, I'm trying to think of a circumstance where bottom up has ever worked economically vs just being a way to buy votes.
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No way. Not possible.
 
#63
#63
Gramps said:
Put an extra $500 in a poor persons hand and they go ape shat crazy deciding what they are going to speend it on .

Most of the middle class does try to save what they can, they are also the buying power in the USA. A sector of the middle class is turning into the poor class due to this economy.
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By this logic, the US should print infinite amounts of cash to give to poor people. If your hypothesis is correct they will put it back into the economy. You are assuming two fallacies. One is that the economy is a fixed pie. Two, you are assuming buying goods just to buy good is productive. This is known as the broken window fallacy which is too in depth to type on my phone.
 
#64
#64
govols09 said:
By this logic, the US should print infinite amounts of cash to give to poor people. If your hypothesis is correct they will put it back into the economy. You are assuming two fallacies. One is that the economy is a fixed pie. Two, you are assuming buying goods just to buy good is productive. This is known as the broken window fallacy which is too in depth to type on my phone.
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well done.
 
#65
#65
govols09 said:
By this logic, the US should print infinite amounts of cash to give to poor people. If your hypothesis is correct they will put it back into the economy. You are assuming two fallacies. One is that the economy is a fixed pie. Two, you are assuming buying goods just to buy good is productive. This is known as the broken window fallacy which is too in depth to type on my phone.
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Did you read what I was replying to.

All I was saying is the poor do not save money, most will spend it as fast as they touch it. There are some that do try to save, most don't and couldn't if they wanted to.
 
#66
#66
Gramps said:
Did you read what I was replying to.

All I was saying is the poor do not save money, most will spend it as fast as they touch it. There are some that do try to save, most don't and couldn't if they wanted to.
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but that misses the point of the glaziers fallacy.
 
#67
#67
lawgator1 said:
If people were calling my office and asking us to handle more cases than we can manage ourselves, I'd hire more associate attorneys to pick all that up for me.

If people were buying cars and clothes and washing machines, businesses would need salespeople, delivery drivers, service teams, computer assistance, payment processing, materials, and shipping.

Increase demand is the answer. And the need is there -- people just do not have the money.
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How do you create long-term sustained demand?

How can government create sustained demand (as you are suggesting)? Taking money from your left hand and putting it into your right hand, then shouting "I'm rich!" is not sustained demand.
 
#68
#68
Gramps said:
Did you read what I was replying to.

All I was saying is the poor do not save money, most will spend it as fast as they touch it. There are some that do try to save, most don't and couldn't if they wanted to.
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You're saying that the poor makes bad financial decisions. So, We should tax someone that works and creates wealth, and turn around and give that money to the poor to create job growth.
 
#69
#69
Volst53 said:
You're saying that the poor makes bad financial decisions. So, We should tax someone that works and creates wealth, and turn around and give that money to the poor to create job growth.
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Thank you for telling me what I was saying.
I didn't realize I had said anything close to that.

nice troll attempt
 
#71
#71
Volst53 said:
You're saying that the poor makes bad financial decisions. So, We should tax someone that works and creates wealth, and turn around and give that money to the poor to create job growth.
Click to expand...


The poor make bad financial decisions?

If they were rich, they could hire people to run blind trusts for them out of the Caymans. You know, like Romney.

They could then hire tax accountants to move it or account for it however they needed to in order to pay a rate of less than half of what it is supposed to be, before the gizmos, gimmicks, trickerations, and doges get applied to it.
 
#72
#72
lawgator1 said:
The poor make bad financial decisions?

If they were rich, they could hire people to run blind trusts for them out of the Caymans. You know, like Romney.

They could then hire tax accountants to move it or account for it however they needed to in order to pay a rate of less than half of what it is supposed to be, before the gizmos, gimmicks, trickerations, and doges get applied to it.
Click to expand...

Most people don't get (or stay) rich being dumb! Also have not met many (any) overly bright poor people.
 
#73
#73
lawgator1 said:
The poor make bad financial decisions?

If they were rich, they could hire people to run blind trusts for them out of the Caymans. You know, like Romney.

They could then hire tax accountants to move it or account for it however they needed to in order to pay a rate of less than half of what it is supposed to be, before the gizmos, gimmicks, trickerations, and doges get applied to it.
Click to expand...

do you have any argument against financial savvy, or are you just being obtuse for the point of your silly class warfare schtick?

One could argue that one is a genius for finding ways to pay more taxes, but that would be otherworldly stupid.
 
#74
#74
hog88 said:
Most people don't get (or stay) rich being dumb! Also have not met many (any) overly bright poor people.
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LOL, then you must be very young. I meet borderline retards all the time who have money. And I frequently meet smart people, stuck in bad situations not of their own making, who struggle.

I'm not saying that Mitt Romney doesn't deserve to be very wealthy. Sure he does.

I just want him to pay the same rate as anyone else does making the same money at a regular job.
 
#75
#75
lawgator1 said:
I'm not saying that Mitt Romney doesn't deserve to be very wealthy. Sure he does.

I just want him to pay the same rate as anyone else does making the same money at a regular job.
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Absurd. Why should he if congress is going to give him outs. He'd be a financial equal to you if he didn't take them. He's not your financial equal. Stop asking him to be. Obama is much more your speed. Maybe he overpays the tax man.
 
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