July Jobs Report

#76
#76
BigPapaVol said:
Absurd. Why should he if congress is going to give him outs. He'd be a financial equal to you if he didn't take them. He's not your financial equal. Stop asking him to be. Obama is much more your speed. Maybe he overpays the tax man.
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I might not have been clear.

I do not want him to have had the outs.
 
#77
#77
lawgator1 said:
I might not have been clear.

I do not want him to have had the outs.
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Therein lies the absurdity of your raise taxes on the 1% argument. They won't pay any more because the loopholes will give them a way out. If the loopholes were fixed, we could lower rates for everyone and still get more tax revenue.
 
#78
#78
lawgator1 said:
I might not have been clear.

I do not want him to have had the outs.
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then why do you keep acting like he's the problem. Get the freaking congress changed.

Obama perpetrated his biggest lie in pretending that he's new Washington, which was likely his only appeal to anyone but hardcore lefties. He has failed as badly as imaginable in that regard and has only deepened the entrenched. Nonetheless, you continue to support the guy like he didn't brazenly lie in his trail to the White House. In fact, you've taken up the mantle and carried it around for him like Hercules. Professional politicians are the problem and Obama is dyed in the wool professional pol crowd. Romney's one bonus IMO is that he isn't a professional politician and he understands enough business world to know where to address things you would find to be issues. Obama has no prayer of ever addressing anything but future votes for his party.
 
#79
#79
bamawriter said:
Therein lies the absurdity of your raise taxes on the 1% argument. They won't pay any more because the loopholes will give them a way out. If the loopholes were fixed, we could lower rates for everyone and still get more tax revenue.
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As long as the net result is that he pays more -- A LOT MORE -- relative to increases we might see as a result on the middle class, you have my attention.

But that is not his proposal. His proposal is to increase taxes on the middle class, and give he and others in his income class even more tax cuts.

His proposal, in my view, is the EXACT WRONG thing to do.

Disclaimer: As long as we are where we are in this economy, I am okay with extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest by another year. I am seriously considering that going off the fiscal cliff is a good thing, in terms of the spending.

Long term, we need the wealthiest to not get all these breaks, bought and paid for by them and industry lobbyists. And that goes for Dems, GOPers, aliens, old people, hobbits, nerds, Vols fans, mountain climbers, artists, and me.
 
#80
#80
I'll add this nothing is more American than the right to be selfish. Why would anyone want to pay more in taxes, if they could get out of it?

No individual should be enslaved to another individual's needs or wants.
 
#81
#81
Volst53 said:
I'll add this nothing is more American than the right to be selfish. Why would anyone want to pay more in taxes, if they could get out of it?

No individual should be enslaved to another individual's needs or wants.
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With regard to paragraph one, you are right. The key is to prevent people from being so greedy on the front end that they rig the tax game in their favor going into it. Which is exactly what happens now.

With regard to your last sentence, who would disagree with that? At the same time, if we are going to have an interdependent society, i.e. provide for a common defense, public education, roads, utilities, general public safety, you have to share that cost somehow.
 
#82
#82
lawgator1 said:
With regard to paragraph one, you are right. The key is to prevent people from being so greedy on the front end that they rig the tax game in their favor going into it. Which is exactly what happens now.

With regard to your last sentence, who would disagree with that? At the same time, if we are going to have an interdependent society, i.e. provide for a common defense, public education, roads, utilities, general public safety, you have to share that cost somehow.
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The distinct difference between your views and mine are that you want to punish success. Every argument boils down to that key principle we differ on
 
#83
#83
lawgator1 said:
As long as the net result is that he pays more -- A LOT MORE -- relative to increases we might see as a result on the middle class, you have my attention.

But that is not his proposal. His proposal is to increase taxes on the middle class, and give he and others in his income class even more tax cuts.
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He hasn't actually released his proposal, so you are making some very large assumptions.
 
#84
#84
Then everyone should be taxed equally since they get the same opportunity and benefits of that society, unless you want to say some individual's needs takes precedent over anothers. Which would mean that people aren't equal

If everyone had the same amount of skin in the game, we might not see so much crazy spending.
 
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#85
#85
LG, let me ask you a question. If you wanted to make a commodity rare how would you do it? Let's use apples for example. To make apples rare, we would first of all tax people who buy apples. We would also tax the makers of apples. We would also put an above market artificle price floor on the apples. If we wanted to get really creative we would pay people to not buy apples. We do the same thing with jobs, the very thing you have been saying no one could have fixed the past few years. We do the same things with our "apples" as we do with jobs. We tax people that have jobs, we tax the producers of jobs, we place a higher than market price floor in the minimum wage on jobs, and then we pay people not to work.
 
#86
#86
lawgator1 said:
LOL, then you must be very young. I meet borderline retards all the time who have money. And I frequently meet smart people, stuck in bad situations not of their own making, who struggle.

I'm not saying that Mitt Romney doesn't deserve to be very wealthy. Sure he does.

I just want him to pay the same rate as anyone else does making the same money at a regular job.
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I wish!! Most likely have 10 to 15 years on you. Yes there are (minority) stupid rich people but the vast majority of them are not stupid. You know, a fool and his money???

Yes there are a few poor people that were caught in bad situations, just that smart/industrious ones don't stay poor long.
 
#88
#88
govols09 said:
LG, let me ask you a question. If you wanted to make a commodity rare how would you do it? Let's use apples for example. To make apples rare, we would first of all tax people who buy apples. We would also tax the makers of apples. We would also put an above market artificle price floor on the apples. If we wanted to get really creative we would pay people to not buy apples. We do the same thing with jobs, the very thing you have been saying no one could have fixed the past few years. We do the same things with our "apples" as we do with jobs. We tax people that have jobs, we tax the producers of jobs, we place a higher than market price floor in the minimum wage on jobs, and then we pay people not to work.
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Blowing his damn mind.
 
#91
#91
lawgator1 said:
As long as the net result is that he pays more -- A LOT MORE -- relative to increases we might see as a result on the middle class, you have my attention.
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Why can't everyone pay the same rate?

lawgator1 said:
But that is not his proposal. His proposal is to increase taxes on the middle class, and give he and others in his income class even more tax cuts.

His proposal, in my view, is the EXACT WRONG thing to do.
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How is he going to increase the tax burden on the middle class? I have seen you say this before without explaining yourself or providing facts.
 
#92
#92
The US has the highest statutory corporate tax rate in the developed world; however, the de facto corporate tax rate (what corporations actually pay the US govt.) here is actually one of the lowest in the developed world. Is the entire developed world broken, or is the US just broken? Furthermore, I would imagine many of these rates haven't changed dramatically since before the recession. I could be wrong about that, but I would wager that's the case. What is it that makes things so different now in terms of how effective or ineffective the corporate tax rate is? I don't claim to necessarily know the answers myself, but I will say I think it's more complicated than some have made it out to be.
 
#93
#93
volprof said:
The US has the highest statutory corporate tax rate in the developed world; however, the de facto corporate tax rate (what corporations actually pay the US govt.) here is actually one of the lowest in the developed world. Is the entire developed world broken, or is the US just broken? Furthermore, I would imagine many of these rates haven't changed dramatically since before the recession. I could be wrong about that, but I would wager that's the case. What is it that makes things so different now in terms of how effective or ineffective the corporate tax rate is? I don't claim to necessarily know the answers myself, but I will say I think it's more complicated than some have made it out to be.
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What is the de facto corp tax rate and how does it compare to the rest of the world?

Pretty sure corps that can figure out moves to better tax environments actually do move. Guess that's bad for the tax havens.
 
#94
#94
volprof said:
The US has the highest statutory corporate tax rate in the developed world; however, the de facto corporate tax rate (what corporations actually pay the US govt.) here is actually one of the lowest in the developed world. Is the entire developed world broken, or is the US just broken? Furthermore, I would imagine many of these rates haven't changed dramatically since before the recession. I could be wrong about that, but I would wager that's the case. What is it that makes things so different now in terms of how effective or ineffective the corporate tax rate is? I don't claim to necessarily know the answers myself, but I will say I think it's more complicated than some have made it out to be.
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Lobbying? If I understood your question correctly, it is a fairly obvious answer. Campaign contributions by corporations are also a part of the problem.
 
#95
#95
BigPapaVol said:
What is the de facto corp tax rate and how does it compare to the rest of the world?

Pretty sure corps that can figure out moves to better tax environments actually do move. Guess that's bad for the tax havens.
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I guess the de facto rate is whatever a corporation can make it. As I understand, the US allows more loopholes than many of the nations with higher statutory rates. Obviously, we can all agree that tax reform is needed to some extent. I just wonder why it is that the low de facto rate post-recession doesn't seem to be doing what it did for us (apparently) before the recession.

Here's an interesting read on the issue though from around the time the recession was in full swing. I'm not sure if it's from a liberal site or not, so take from it what you will. I know there are multiple takes on the issue.

High Corporate Tax Rate Is Misleading - SmartMoney.com
 
#96
#96
The article you posted was hardly damning. Normalized for pass through taxes, we moved up alongside the rest of the world. What the analysis uses as a basis is total tax receipts, which can be massively skewed by higher individual rates. Oops.
 
#97
#97
BigPapaVol said:
The article you posted was hardly damning. Normalized for pass through taxes, we moved up alongside the rest of the world. What the analysis uses as a basis is total tax receipts, which can be massively skewed by higher individual rates. Oops.
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So if the US will just lower the corporate tax rate, we're good to go?
 
#100
#100
PKT_VOL said:
Wages are not the problem. The dollar tanking is.
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Dollar tanking is helping wages here because it is lessening the positive effects of offshoring.

The USD to PHP (just one example) was 52 to 1 during Bush. This made offshoring very lucratic. It is now barely 40 to 1. That is a huge swing.

The wage rate for a blue collar worker with no skillset here is just too damn high. Sorry but it is. That is a problem.

I personally wish the USD would get stronger so it would make my position better.
 
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