Just trying to understand the "we can't fire Zo if we make tourney in any capacity"

#126
#126
bigsteve13 said:
What hand was he dealt? This isn't the dumpster fire that Dooley or Butch inherited. He walked into plenty of talent in a soaring program with a thriving fan base. If he was a good coach, this wouldn't be a bubble team at best, it would be a dangerous 4 or 5 seed. His teams have done nothing but underachieve in a weak SEC conference all 3 of his seasons.
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Year one was a dumpster fire. He had to fill out a roster, and there wasn't a returning starter. This has been debated many, many times.
 
#127
#127
VolGee4 said:
I don't think that was Pearl's most talented team. I believe the team that got us to #1 was. Tyler Smith, Lofton, Jujuan Smith, Chism, Prince, Ramar Smith, Crews. Talent at every position.
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I didn't say that was Pearl's most talented team. Why did you quote me?
 
#128
#128
omghulkhands said:
And McRae is better than Hopson, Stokes is worlds better than Williams and Josh is a much better player overall than Cam was his senior year. Cam was just terrible for most of his senior year, it was so strange.

Goins and Harris are legitimate upgrades however, but I still don't know if it balances out.
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I'm talking the historically better thing...I mean you could argue the Watson, Loften, Smith, Wingate team of Pearl's first year, would crush this years team even if you flipped coaches...

This team is no dream team, that's all I'm sayin.
 
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#130
#130
What tilts me so much is that we have better players than year one under CCM, all of our players are improved overall outside Maymon (Jordan, Josh and Jarnell have all vastly improved as players individually and statistically) and our results in year 3 are just barely improved from year 1.
 
#131
#131
omghulkhands said:
What tilts me so much is that we have better players than year one under CCM, all of our players are improved overall outside Maymon (Jordan, Josh and Jarnell have all vastly improved as players individually and statistically) and our results in year 3 are just barely improved from year 1.
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Well, that can be debated. We have lost some disappointing games, but we are in a much better position this year, and it isn't close. A&M loss aside, we haven't lost to teams like Austin Peay, Oakland, and College of Charleston. We are still inconsistent and struggle on offense, which is disappointing. But this team is way ahead of year one.
 
#133
#133
VolGee4 said:
Well, that can be debated. We have lost some disappointing games, but we are in a much better position this year, and it isn't close. A&M loss aside, we haven't lost to teams like Austin Peay, Oakland, and College of Charleston. We are still inconsistent and struggle on offense, which is disappointing. But this team is way ahead of year one.
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Oakland wasn't a bad team. But god that AP game, ugh.

We had some nice wins that year to offset some bad losses. I bet if you compared our RPI to this time year 1 then the difference would be subtle. I can't agree that it is at all accurate to say that it isn't close. We were a bubble team then and we are a bubbleish team now. Not a big difference.
 
#134
#134
omghulkhands said:
What tilts me so much is that we have better players than year one under CCM, all of our players are improved overall outside Maymon (Jordan, Josh and Jarnell have all vastly improved as players individually and statistically) and our results in year 3 are just barely improved from year 1.
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You obviously know more about x's and o's...but the point guard situation has not improved very much. Barton is not the upgrade people thought he would be. Thompson is getting better and I think that's good, but isn't that the missing link?
 
#135
#135
omghulkhands said:
Oakland wasn't a bad team. But god that AP game, ugh.

We had some nice wins that year to offset some bad losses. I bet if you compared our RPI to this time year 1 then the difference would be subtle. I can't agree that it is at all accurate to say that it isn't close. We were a bubble team then and we are a bubbleish team now. Not a big difference.
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I am pretty sure BTO compared the RPI from the past years last week or so, and it wasn't close. I am pretty sure we were 80+ RPI or maybe worse in year one around this time. Our RPI now is much better than the last two years.
 
#136
#136
vol66 said:
You obviously know more about x's and o's...but the point guard situation has not improved very much. Barton is not the upgrade people thought he would be. Thompson is getting better and I think that's good, but isn't that the missing link?
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My biggest disappointment from CCM- not finding a solid PG. I still don't like Golden, so I am not rehashing that. Barton has disappointed a bit, but he is not a true PG either. He is a better career shooter than Golden, and he is struggling right now.
 
#137
#137
VolGee4 said:
I am pretty sure BTO compared the RPI from the past years last week or so, and it wasn't close. I am pretty sure we were 80+ RPI or maybe worse in year one around this time. Our RPI now is much better than the last two years.
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We beat a top 20 Florida team, then beat them when they were top 10. We beat an 11th ranked UCONN team too. Also, CofC ended up the year 19-12, not shabby.

I don't remember what point of the year those big wins came, so that could be it. Even this year we don't have anything close to wins of that magnitude yet. Big opportunity at home against Florida coming up.
 
#138
#138
vol66 said:
You obviously know more about x's and o's...but the point guard situation has not improved very much. Barton is not the upgrade people thought he would be. Thompson is getting better and I think that's good, but isn't that the missing link?
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We always won when Golden played well, so it is possible. Problem is he just no showed a lot. I personally don't think this offense is conducive to a pg performing well, at least not the way it is ran currently.
 
#139
#139
omghulkhands said:
We beat a top 20 Florida team, then beat them when they were top 10. We beat an 11th ranked UCONN team too. Also, CofC ended up the year 19-12, not shabby.

I don't remember what point of the year those big wins came, so that could be it. Even this year we don't have anything close to wins of that magnitude yet. Big opportunity at home against Florida coming up.
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We ended that year around 86 RPI- just looked it up. One of the UF games was late, and UConn was in January, I think. But those early losses are killers.

This year, we have more solid wins. UVA is a top 25 RPI, and Xavier, OM, and LSU are top 60. Wake Forest is top 75.
 
#140
#140
VolGee4 said:
My biggest disappointment from CCM- not finding a solid PG. I still don't like Golden, so I am not rehashing that. Barton has disappointed a bit, but he is not a true PG either. He is a better career shooter than Golden, and he is struggling right now.
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I'm really, as a fan, a multi sport Vols fan, having a hard time blaming this on Martin.

Hamilton (who got fired) hired Martin. Martin had been a head coach for three years, won his conference but never made the tournament. For some perspective, Billy Donovan was coaching at Marshall when Martin was a junior at Purdue.

SO...you got Martin following Pearl who had nine years at DII Southern Indiana winning big time, and he has 4 years at Milwaukee and he goes to the dance twice there, then to Tennessee where he makes the dance every year.

Pearl had coached 13 years of basketball before getting here, Martin had coached three.

The expectations are unfair.

Yet, he's 3-1 versus Donovan. He's beaten UK. He still can make the tourney in his 3rd season.

It took Gregg Marshall 5 years to make the tourney at Wichita State.

It took Donovan 2 years at Marshall and 2 years at UF to make the tourney.

It took Ben Howland 4 years at Northern Arizona, 3 years at Pitt, 2 years at UCLA...He's been a head coach for 19 years and he's made the tourney 9 times.

I could go on...

I see upside, long term, but I get that I'm in the minority. I wish folks would just be a little more respectful.
 
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#141
#141
VolGee4 said:
This argument has been hashed and rehashed a million times. He inherited absolutely no experience. I was fine with year one. Last year was a little disappointing even though we had lost Maymon. Two losses to both OM and UGA were unacceptable. Yes, next year could be a rebuilding year, but that will happen when you lose 3 seniors and a junior.
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lose 3 seniors and a junior plus recruit like crap.
 
#142
#142
bigsteve13 said:
That's funny? You think that this team is exactly where they should be? You can't be serious. You're right, Vanderbilt is a much more talented team than we are.
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He's clueless. Everyone with an IQ above mayonnaise will quickly see it.

There's no way anyone, and even the "Bring Back Broooce" simpletons, could defend what Cuonzo has shown. He's another example of what bargain-bin hires do.
 
#143
#143
Ronny Swanson said:
He's clueless. Everyone with an IQ above mayonnaise will quickly see it.

There's no way anyone, and even the "Bring Back Broooce" simpletons, could defend what Cuonzo has shown. He's another example of what bargain-bin hires do.
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That's what I mean...Bargain bin. So far this fan base has coughed up realistic names like Phil Jackson.

Let's start with who was reportedly on the list last time and work to newer names bandied about... like Mark Turgeon, no NCAA appearances at Maryland.

Chris Mooney, nope

Lawrence Frank, never coached in college, never recruited, .454 winning % in the NBA

Brad Stevens, Shaka Smart, I'm down if they are. Rick Byrd too. All about as realistic as Phil Jackson.

Chris Mack, currently 15 -7, last year 17-14

Jim Larranga, currently 11-11, 28 years of coaching, 6 tournament appearances.

Rick Pitino Jr. 18-14 at FIU, 15-8 at Minnesota

Jim Crews- 26 years, 5 tourney appearances...526%

Mick Cronin- made the tourney in his 5th year at Cincinnati .606%

Scott Skiles - never coached college, .506% (bet he could find a point guard though)

Larry Eustachy - 23 years, 5 NCAA appearances, currently 13-10. He's made the final AP poll 2 times in 23 years.

Tim Floyd has coached for 20 years, made the tourney 8 times, final AP Poll 5 times

Tad Boyle -7 years, 2 tourneys, currently 17-6, final AP Nope

Tim Miles -.455 made the tourney in his 5th year at Colorado St. currently 11-10

Lon Kruger - 28 years, 14 dances, 1 final four
 
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#144
#144
bleedingTNorange said:
Love these, they typical...when we beat good teams by 30 it's all the players. When we lose to bad team, it's all coach Martin.

Can't have it both ways slick.
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I truly believe that you'll be a fan of another team when Martin is gone. You showed up when he arrived and seem to care more about Martin and condoning his ineptitude than Tennessee actually being a quality basketball program.

Seriously... the second he was hired, you immediately came in and took over the basketball forum as if your opinion is the one true opinion. As far as I'm concerned, your only attachment as a fan to Tennessee sports is Cuonzo Martin. It's off putting and beyond annoying.

Face the facts. Cuonzo Martin sucks.
 
#145
#145
bleedingTNorange said:
He didn't inherit 1all sec and 2 2nd team all sec players... Hey inherited some unproven guys that had done nothing before he got there.
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And we inherited a coach that's never done anything, anywhere.

What's your point?

Cuonzo Martin has never done anything. His biggest accomplishment is being hired by Tennessee. He's never actually won anything on the court at Missouri State or Tennessee.
 
#146
#146
bleedingTNorange said:
It's funny how pearls final year excuses are fine, but posters are quick to say no excuses whatsoever for Zo lol.

The coaches job is to coach and hide distractions and not let it effect his team. That team went 19-15, and got in as a 9 seed iirc, with a more talented roster.
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After 5 years of success, 1 year can be excused.

You excuse Martin's pathetic coaching year in and year out. Dude has never even made the tournament.

But yeah... it's the same thing.

I'm out of the basketball forum until Martin is fired. I hope you go with him or change your tune because your bias is annoying.
 
#149
#149
I think the difference with Pearl's last team and this team is that Pearl had strong competition in the SEC. Martin has very little competition. Pearl would win at least 23 games in this league and this lineup!!
 
#150
#150
omghulkhands said:
We always won when Golden played well, so it is possible. Problem is he just no showed a lot. I personally don't think this offense is conducive to a pg performing well, at least not the way it is ran currently.
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There is no role for pg performance in this system. Bring the ball up the floor and watch.
May as well have stuck with Landry. He doesn't waste energy in shooting so would have fit right in.
 
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