Just trying to understand the "we can't fire Zo if we make tourney in any capacity"

[k-town_king]

First of all, your post is loading with BS and half truths. Secondly, the mark of a good coach can be found in watching the actual games, not counting the wins and losses.

Before I reply to your post, I'll let you rescind your comparison between Pearl and Zo. It's not good for Zo if you do that. So before I respond to all that, I'll let you think that over and withdraw the dumb comparison.

You have no idea what you are talking about. What did I say that is bs or a half truth?

Pearl inherited a whole starting five of four stars who had played and all averaged at least 5.5 ppg. Also Lofton who was a freshman AA . Both his big men averaged over a block a game. Lofton led the SEC in threes before Pearl.

Martin inherited Tatum at 8.8 as his best returning player. No one else over 3 ppg. Maymon 2.2 with ZERO blocks on the year . McRae with his whopping 1.8 ppg and 1/11 3 pt shooting. We were picked to be 11 of 12 in the SEC and finished 2nd.

Pearls teams had more talent and won 19,21 and 22 games with those teams. Then he lost first round twice including by 30 points one game. The other year as a 2 seed Lofton hits a last second shot to beat a 15 seed and we got whooped the next game.

These are facts.

Fact is if we make the NCAA this year will be as good or better than half of Pearl's years.

So either half of Pearl's years are failures or this year will be ok if we make it to the dance .

 

[wherewolf]

I've actually said the best case scenario is for Martin to make the dance and move on after the season, so I don't guess I'm in the group you're calling.

I will say this however, in the coaching fraternity CCM is thought of pretty highly. His peers think he's a great guy, and a solid coach, and that he's doing a decent job given the hand he was dealt. So I think if you fire the guy after making the dance, you're sending off a message to other candidates that just making the dance isn't enough, you've gotta advance consistently.

Now there's nothing wrong with that mindset or requirement, by when you're gonna go bargain shopping for coaches you're likely not gonna find someone in our price range that thinks those requirements are fair.

Jmo

That's funny, b/c people like Chris Dortch and Jimmy Dykes
are slamming the job CM's doing on the court. The way he's handled Jordy Mac is so predictable, most opposing coaches have found TN easy to beat b/c Cuonzo won't use enough screens to get 52 more looks.

I'm sure Kevin Stallings thinks very highly of him too after last week!

 

[calban]

That's funny, b/c people like Chris Dortch and Jimmy Dykes
are slamming the job CM's doing on the court. The way he's handled Jordy Mac is so predictable, most opposing coaches have found TN easy to beat b/c Cuonzo won't use enough screens to get 52 more looks.

I'm sure Kevin Stallings thinks very highly of him too after last week!

Stallings praised TN after the game.
Had to be a first.

 

[Godfatha]

They will not terminate his contract if he makes the tourney - nor should they. The buy out drops in half after the 4th season. The drop off next season with a team that will be lucky to win half their games will eliminate any questions and any holdovers in the 'think he should stay crowd'.

UT never goes after a high profile coach in basketball, and rarely in football. So any new coach they hire will need several years to rebuild the roster. Get ready for more of the trend down/rebuild crap that you are used to as a Vol fan.

There will still be holdovers. The same people carrying water for Zo now will be carrying water for him next year when we're terrible and likely hovering around .500. The excuse will be that it's a depleted roster. Nevermind the fact that Zo has had plenty of time to recruit and build the program so that .500 down year is unacceptable.

 

[Godfatha]

Stallings praised TN after the game.
Had to be a first.

Rick Pitino praised Wade Houston, too.

 

[CAVol]

That's funny, b/c people like Chris Dortch and Jimmy Dykes
are slamming the job CM's doing on the court. The way he's handled Jordy Mac is so predictable, most opposing coaches have found TN easy to beat b/c Cuonzo won't use enough screens to get 52 more looks.

I'm sure Kevin Stallings thinks very highly of him too after last week!

I hadn't heard jimmy slam him. Where did that happen?

 

[k-town_king]

I also heard Jimmy point out how it was weird that the fans were complaining about our scoring when we are putting up more points than half Pearl's teams.

 

[Godfatha]

I'm really, as a fan, a multi sport Vols fan, having a hard time blaming this on Martin.

Hamilton (who got fired) hired Martin. Martin had been a head coach for three years, won his conference but never made the tournament. For some perspective, Billy Donovan was coaching at Marshall when Martin was a junior at Purdue.

SO...you got Martin following Pearl who had nine years at DII Southern Indiana winning big time, and he has 4 years at Milwaukee and he goes to the dance twice there, then to Tennessee where he makes the dance every year.

Pearl had coached 13 years of basketball before getting here, Martin had coached three.

The expectations are unfair.

Yet, he's 3-1 versus Donovan. He's beaten UK. He still can make the tourney in his 3rd season.

It took Gregg Marshall 5 years to make the tourney at Wichita State.

It took Donovan 2 years at Marshall and 2 years at UF to make the tourney.

It took Ben Howland 4 years at Northern Arizona, 3 years at Pitt, 2 years at UCLA...He's been a head coach for 19 years and he's made the tourney 9 times.

I could go on...

I see upside, long term, but I get that I'm in the minority. I wish folks would just be a little more respectful.

We're not a training school. That's what the mid-majors are for. Martin may be a good coach someday, sure, but Thompson-Boling won't get butts in the seats for someone to learn on the job.

 

[Ronny Swanson]

I hadn't heard jimmy slam him. Where did that happen?

Incessant references that we aren't coached in any phase of the game. He basically said what every person that knows anything about basketball sees on an every game basis.

 

[k-town_king]

Incessant references that we aren't coached in any phase of the game. He basically said what every person that knows anything about basketball sees on an every game basis.

He didn't say anything like that.

 

[Ronny Swanson]

He didn't say anything like that.

Yes he did.

 

[CAVol]

Incessant references that we aren't coached in any phase of the game. He basically said what every person that knows anything about basketball sees on an every game basis.

I've only ever heard him say good things about Cuonzo. What game did he say this in?

 

[volbeast33]

You have no idea what you are talking about. What did I say that is bs or a half truth?

Pearl inherited a whole starting five of four stars who had played and all averaged at least 5.5 ppg. Also Lofton who was a freshman AA . Both his big men averaged over a block a game. Lofton led the SEC in threes before Pearl.

Martin inherited Tatum at 8.8 as his best returning player. No one else over 3 ppg. Maymon 2.2 with ZERO blocks on the year . McRae with his whopping 1.8 ppg and 1/11 3 pt shooting. We were picked to be 11 of 12 in the SEC and finished 2nd.

Pearls teams had more talent and won 19,21 and 22 games with those teams. Then he lost first round twice including by 30 points one game. The other year as a 2 seed Lofton hits a last second shot to beat a 15 seed and we got whooped the next game.

These are facts.



Fact is if we make the NCAA this year will be as good or better than half of Pearl's years.
So either half of Pearl's years are failures or this year will be ok if we make it to the dance .

You left out a few facts which I maintain is a big part of being coaching....using rivals rankings so it will be using the same ranking system....

All three of Zo's yrs his recruiting classes have been outside the top 30..

Pearls recruiting classes:
2010 #9
2009 out of top 30.....2 players(small class) 1 top 100
2008 #7
2007 out of top 30....2 players( small class) 1 borderline 100 guy....not a great class
2006 # 6
2005 out of top 30

So 3 out of his six seasons he had top 10 classes.....it starts with the talent u bring in and Zo is not bringing in the talent.

 

[Gramps]

You left out a few facts which I maintain is a big part of being coaching....using rivals rankings so it will be using the same ranking system....

All three of Zo's yrs his recruiting classes have been outside the top 30..

Pearls recruiting classes:
2010 #9
2009 out of top 30.....2 players(small class) 1 top 100
2008 #7
2007 out of top 30....2 players( small class) 1 borderline 100 guy....not a great class
2006 # 6
2005 out of top 30

So 3 out of his six seasons he had top 10 classes.....it starts with the talent u bring in and Zo is not bringing in the talent.

There is a tremendous amount of talent on this seasons team.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

There will still be holdovers. The same people carrying water for Zo now will be carrying water for him next year when we're terrible and likely hovering around .500. The excuse will be that it's a depleted roster. Nevermind the fact that Zo has had plenty of time to recruit and build the program so that .500 down year is unacceptable.

Who exactly is "carrying water" for Zo? I know of about 3 people on here who you could even somewhat say that about, and if attendance is getting so bad and Zo is getting booed and people are chanting for Pearl, then obviously there aren't a lot of Martin fans out there period.

 

[Dave1967]

He's going to be zo out of a job if Tennessee doesn't go to the Big Dance!

 

[k-town_king]

You left out a few facts which I maintain is a big part of being coaching....using rivals rankings so it will be using the same ranking system....

All three of Zo's yrs his recruiting classes have been outside the top 30..

Pearls recruiting classes:
2010 #9
2009 out of top 30.....2 players(small class) 1 top 100
2008 #7
2007 out of top 30....2 players( small class) 1 borderline 100 guy....not a great class
2006 # 6
2005 out of top 30

So 3 out of his six seasons he had top 10 classes.....it starts with the talent u bring in and Zo is not bringing in the talent.

I agree somewhat. I have always said Pearl recruited better than Martin has. Pearl also caught lightning in a bottle with Lofton and co handed to him who put up a lot of points and got recruits interested from the jump. I think Marin did pretty good his first two classes. He got a 5 star each year at UT. Pearl didn't even do that back to back. This year I think is average with potential. I think Martin has not recruited well in the post besides stokes and hopefully Cofer. Still no good 5s though.

 

[CAVol]

Who exactly is "carrying water" for Zo? I know of about 3 people on here who you could even somewhat say that about, and if attendance is getting so bad and Zo is getting booed and people are chanting for Pearl, then obviously there aren't a lot of Martin fans out there period.

You would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks Martin is doing a good job with this team.

 

[volbeast33]

I agree somewhat. I have always said Pearl recruited better than Martin has. Pearl also caught lightning in a bottle with Lofton and co handed to him who put up a lot of points and got recruits interested from the jump. I think Marin did pretty good his first two classes. He got a 5 star each year at UT. Pearl didn't even do that back to back. This year I think is average with potential. I think Martin has not recruited well in the post besides stokes and hopefully Cofer. Still no good 5s though.

I think if u r a good recruiter then u can recruit.....Kevin Oneill was killing it recruiting here and his teams were horrible and boring as can be to watch......Butch had a top 5 -7 class after a 5-7 season.

 

[germanicus]

I agree somewhat. I have always said Pearl recruited better than Martin has. Pearl also caught lightning in a bottle with Lofton and co handed to him who put up a lot of points and got recruits interested from the jump. I think Marin did pretty good his first two classes. He got a 5 star each year at UT. Pearl didn't even do that back to back. This year I think is average with potential. I think Martin has not recruited well in the post besides stokes and hopefully Cofer. Still no good 5s though.

I know people downgrade them, but Pearl recruited two five stars in one class - the 2006 class with Duke & Ramar. He followed that up with adding 5 star transfer J.P. Prince in 2007 and signed five star high school recruit Scotty Hopson in 2008. Skipped a year before signing Tobias in 2010. So, he was doing okay signing five stars. Did they all live up to five star billing? No, although Ramar and Duke were key parts of two nationally ranked Sweet 16 teams and J.P. and Scotty were key starters on a couple of Sweet 16 and one Elite 8 team.

 

[vol66]

We're not a training school. That's what the mid-majors are for. Martin may be a good coach someday, sure, but Thompson-Boling won't get butts in the seats for someone to learn on the job.

Then he never should have been hired. No coach with 3 years of head coaching experience should be asked to walk in and beat guys like Stallings, Donovan and Calipari. I think most people would have rather had Frank Martin, looks good...or Anthony Grant, uh-uh.

Cut this guy after his 3rd season and see who's on the list, dying to come here.

There were 17,000 people there Saturday and people are mad because it's not 20,000. Some guy was saying we needed to be up by 20 in the game thread, then when we were...

 

[Gramps]

Then he never should have been hired. No coach with 3 years of head coaching experience should be asked to walk in and beat guys like Stallings, Donovan and Calipari. I think most people would have rather had Frank Martin, looks good...or Anthony Grant, uh-uh.

Cut this guy after his 3rd season and see who's on the list, dying to come here.

There were 17,000 people there Saturday and people are mad because it's not 20,000. Some guy was saying we needed to be up by 20 in the game thread, then when we were...

Mike Hamilton struck again.Looks like every hire he made as AD turned to crap.

 

[NYC Vol]

You have no idea what you are talking about. What did I say that is bs or a half truth?

Pearl inherited a whole starting five of four stars who had played and all averaged at least 5.5 ppg. Also Lofton who was a freshman AA . Both his big men averaged over a block a game. Lofton led the SEC in threes before Pearl.

Martin inherited Tatum at 8.8 as his best returning player. No one else over 3 ppg. Maymon 2.2 with ZERO blocks on the year . McRae with his whopping 1.8 ppg and 1/11 3 pt shooting. We were picked to be 11 of 12 in the SEC and finished 2nd.

Pearls teams had more talent and won 19,21 and 22 games with those teams. Then he lost first round twice including by 30 points one game. The other year as a 2 seed Lofton hits a last second shot to beat a 15 seed and we got whooped the next game.

These are facts.

Fact is if we make the NCAA this year will be as good or better than half of Pearl's years.

So either half of Pearl's years are failures or this year will be ok if we make it to the dance .

You are comparing a coach who has never made an NCAA in 5 years (possibly 6 this year) with a coach who made the NCAA's in 19 of 21 years.

In one post you complain that Zo inherited "nothing" (only 4 4*s so maybe you get confused between the word "nothing" and "inexperienced") and then claim that Pearl was so lucky to inherit great talent from a team that went 14-17 and lost two of its top 3 scorers. I mean, looking back I'm amazed that all the pundits didn't have us 1st or 2nd in the SEC in Pearl's 1st year.

You make claims about Pearl's 19, 20 and 21 win teams. Lets discuss who they beat and who they lost to in those years compared to Zo's big victories and then losses to teams like Austin Peay, UTEP, UGA x2, etc.

Yep, half truths.

By the way, you didn't answer the original question. Keep Zo because he's the long term answer for UT basketball or can you just not fire a guy after making the tourney because of the PR hit you will take and/or other coaches won't come calling.

 

[vol66]

You are comparing a coach who has never made an NCAA in 5 years (possibly 6 this year) with a coach who made the NCAA's in 19 of 21 years.

In one post you complain that Zo inherited "nothing" (only 4 4*s so maybe you get confused between the word "nothing" and "inexperienced") and then claim that Pearl was so lucky to inherit great talent from a team that went 14-17 and lost two of its top 3 scorers. I mean, looking back I'm amazed that all the pundits didn't have us 1st or 2nd in the SEC in Pearl's 1st year.

You make claims about Pearl's 19, 20 and 21 win teams. Lets discuss who they beat and who they lost to in those years compared to Zo's big victories and then losses to teams like Austin Peay, UTEP, UGA x2, etc.

Yep, half truths.

Pearl coached 19 years, the first 9 were DII, 4 Milwaukee, 6 at UT. just nit picking.

 

[NYC Vol]

Pearl coached 19 years, the first 9 were DII, 4 Milwaukee, 6 at UT. just nit picking.

My bad. I knew the number 19 was in there somewhere and that he missed 2 tourneys. Thought it was 19 tourneys in 21 years. Obviously I was wrong. Make that 17 of 19 years he was in the NCAAs. The other two, when he was at UW-M, were NIT bids. I think the only time he finished below 3rd in his conference (though in the SEC it was East/West) was his last year when it was 5th.

My original point is that I don't think anyone is doing Zo any justice when trying to compare him to Pearl. If people think he should get more time, that's fine. I'll listen to arguments. But if one is going to compare him to Pearl, their argument is automatically dismissed for complete idiocy.