Karma: Trophy Hunter Crushed by Shot Elephant

#102
#102
InVOLuntary said:
I can pull article also that contradict those. Every article has a bias so there's no point. I never said overall numbers were not down. I've said you have to look at the herds that have huntable populations. When poachers are taking over 90% of the animals the effect of legal hunting will be minimized as to the whole population. Take that $200 million from legal hunting away an watch the population plummet.
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Again you keep operating under the assumption that big game trophy outfits are doing major things in regard to conservation or are at least doing better than the real conservation parks/groups. That's crap - they aren't - they are making profit and monopolizing the market. All you need to do is look at Botswana and THE RECENT DATA which shows those countries which have legalized elephant hunting are showing DECREASING TRENDS in elephant population upwards of 8% a year.

They zig-zagged over like 15 countries by plane at low altitude counting the elephants one by one for the data I mentioned - it is estimated they counted over 90% of the elephants. It is THE source for elephant population numbers. But yeah, can't trust them dern nefarious sources - especially not them conservation ones.

Unfortunately for the elephants, the data is recent and it's real. Elephants arent endangered yet but they will be soon, especially if we continue down the same path of 'management' that we are today. If you want to convince yourself that big trophy outfits are apart of the solution because of the money they are associated with that's fine. Reality paints a far, far different picture of this issue and countries like Botswana & Kenya are leading the way for elephant conversation - whereas it's business as usual with the big game trophy outfits, the government officials they bribe, the countries where this is legal and all those involved in the legal ivory trade. And guess what? Elephant numbers are dropping in the areas. (Notice how I keep mentioning this? I mention this over and over because you fail to acknowledge this very important detail.)

Choosing to believe the contradicting data over the most complete data available is willful ignorance at best.

:hi:
 
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#103
#103
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Again you keep operating under the assumption that big game trophy outfits are doing major things in regard to conservation or are at least doing better than the real conservation parks/groups. That's crap - they aren't - they are making profit and monopolizing the market. All you need to do is look at Botswana and THE RECENT DATA which shows those countries which have legalized elephant hunting are showing DECREASING TRENDS in elephant population upwards of 8% a year.

They zig-zagged over like 15 countries by plane at low altitude counting the elephants one by one for the data I mentioned - it is estimated they counted over 90% of the elephants. It is THE source for elephant population numbers. But yeah, can't trust them dern nefarious sources - especially not them conservation ones.

Unfortunately for the elephants, the data is recent and it's real. Elephants arent endangered yet but they will be soon, especially if we continue down the same path of 'management' that we are today. If you want to convince yourself that big trophy outfits are apart of the solution because of the money they are associated with that's fine. Reality paints a far, far different picture of this issue and countries like Botswana & Kenya are leading the way for elephant conversation - whereas it's business as usual with the big game trophy outfits, the government officials they bribe, the countries where this is legal and all those involved in the legal ivory trade. And guess what? Elephant numbers are dropping in the areas. (Notice how I keep mentioning this? I mention this over and over because you fail to acknowledge this very important detail.)

Choosing to believe the contradicting data over the most complete data available is willful ignorance at best.

:hi:
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Number one, I would be skeptic of the data. People tend to make the numbers meet whatever they want it to meet on both sides.

Number two, I've already said you can't look at the numbers based on a whole country. Different parts of a country can have different standards and laws and different ratios of huntable lands and non-huntable lands. For instance if one country may have a national park with no hunting and that park takes up 50% of the country's land mass whereas maybe only 10% is managed for hunting, wouldn't that skew the results? If that 10% took say 5 elephants legally and the 50% park where no hunting was allowed had 50 elephants taken by poachers, wouldn't that make the overall numbers meaningless?
:hi:
 
#104
#104
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Again you keep operating under the assumption that big game trophy outfits are doing major things in regard to conservation or are at least doing better than the real conservation parks/groups. That's crap - they aren't - they are making profit and monopolizing the market. All you need to do is look at Botswana and THE RECENT DATA which shows those countries which have legalized elephant hunting are showing DECREASING TRENDS in elephant population upwards of 8% a year.

They zig-zagged over like 15 countries by plane at low altitude counting the elephants one by one for the data I mentioned - it is estimated they counted over 90% of the elephants. It is THE source for elephant population numbers. But yeah, can't trust them dern nefarious sources - especially not them conservation ones.

Unfortunately for the elephants, the data is recent and it's real. Elephants arent endangered yet but they will be soon, especially if we continue down the same path of 'management' that we are today. If you want to convince yourself that big trophy outfits are apart of the solution because of the money they are associated with that's fine. Reality paints a far, far different picture of this issue and countries like Botswana & Kenya are leading the way for elephant conversation - whereas it's business as usual with the big game trophy outfits, the government officials they bribe, the countries where this is legal and all those involved in the legal ivory trade. And guess what? Elephant numbers are dropping in the areas. (Notice how I keep mentioning this? I mention this over and over because you fail to acknowledge this very important detail.)

Choosing to believe the contradicting data over the most complete data available is willful ignorance at best.

:hi:
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I'm wondering how you fared in your stats class. Correlation does not equal causation. Ice cream sales go up in summer. Rape goes up in summer. Ice cream sales do not cause rapes, or vice versa. Legal hunting by itself does not cause large drops in population. Access to animals, geography making it difficult to track animals, black market trade routes, goverment expenditures on anti poaching, and many other things have a much greater impact than a few guys shooting old elephants.
 
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#105
#105
DancingOutlaw said:
I'm wondering how you fared in your stats class. Correlation does not equal causation. Ice cream sales go up in summer. Rape goes up in summer. Ice cream sales do not cause rapes, or vice versa. Legal hunting by itself does not cause large drops in population. Access to animals, geography making it difficult to track animals, black market trade routes, goverment expenditures on anti poaching, and many other things have a much greater impact than a few guys shooting old elephants.
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Talk about stating the obvious... Are you even aware of what we're talking about here? We're talking about the decline of the African elephant and basing that information on the best peer reviewed data available. No one is saying the idiotic thing you implied which is that big game hunters are responsible for the decline of the species. That is preposterous - everyone knows it's poaching fueled by the ivory trade.

This has divulged into an endless circle jerk about big game trophy outfits and their supposed benefit towards the species - a species which they have their most lucrative market on and have essentially monopolized. These outfits are taking *some* efforts to protect the elephants, but again where does the money go? To government officials and the big game trophy outfits (which in turn employs a sizeable local workforce for protection, guides, etc) - maybe a few hands slicked along the way to get a few extra elephants for the allotted hunt. All it proves (if you are to believe the peer reviewed data that is - crazy I know) is that their presence in these countries isnt enough to significantly deter the poachers - an 8% decrease in population per year will result in this species becoming endangered very, very quickly. As Botswana has shown, you do not need big trophy outfits to manage the species. There are other ways that do not involve these international trophy outfits colluding with government officials or game managers. All I'm saying is these big game outfits are not going to be apart of the solution as much as theyd like to advertise that they are.
 
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#106
#106
I've run through this and it appears there needs to be a few things brought to the fore.

#1. Who cares about the actual plight of the animals? (elephants, rhinos, lions, doesn't matter) Lots of people, right? How many care in Africa? And I don't mean that "wouldn't it be nice" kinda care I mean the "make a difference at ground zero where the animals live" kinda care. To a great big huge chunk of the people that share space with those animals they can be anything from a nuisance to outright threat. I believe elephants kill something like 500ppl a year and the vast majority aren't hunters. More than likely most are just poor Africans trying to keep elephants from destroying their crops. This particular article involved lions but the context is the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?_r=0

#2. So the ugly truth is that average Joe African in the bush is dirt poor and just trying to scratch out a living. The giant feral hogs out there that need something like 400lbs a food a day will absolutely lay waste to crops. Problem elephants are either going to be culled by the government or snared/poisoned/shot by the locals. Obviously the idea is to keep the critters and the people separate, right? So this means the critters have to have someplace to be. As of 2015 there was more viable habitat land set aside in Africa for hunting than all the national parks combined. That accounts for more than half of viable wild animal habitat. Now ponder for a moment if the hunting went away. What's that land going to be used for? Cattle? Crops? Mining? I'll tell you this much...it sure as hell won't be payed for by people with interest in putting up with wild animals screwing up their profit/livelihood.

#3. So let's put this all together. Like so many things in this world we need to follow the money. Anybody with a clue should already know that by a large, large margin most of the killing of certain animals, rhino and elephant in particular as well as big cats, is not of the legal nature. This is because of money. They don't give a rat's rotting rectum about the viability of the species. There exists a pretty big legal hunting industry (most of which is not Big 5 related BTW) that very much cares about the viability of the species. That's because a properly managed hunting population is literally the gift that keeps on giving. Grow a lot, take a few, get paid, repeat. When the animals are gone the business is gone. Right now the only thing having any significant positive influence on some of these animals is the animals having worth. Again, I'm not talking about people in the Western World swooning over the majesty of the African elephant/lion/rhino etc. All the good will in the world doesn't amount to much on the ground in Botswana. I'm talking about straight up money coming and going out of people's pockets. Right now hunting isn't a "fix" or "cure" but I'd sure like someone to point out, in cold pragmatic terms, what is doing more to keep viable habitat and animal populations having a demonstrable and real world value.

I hunt but I wouldn't shoot an elephant if you gave the permit. I'm simply not interested. I'm not particularly fond, as a personal matter, of hunting elephant and rhino but I've looked over the issue and can't find anything that measurably places more tangible value on the animals and their habitat than hunting. Call it "the right result for the wrong reason" if you must but that's the situation we're having to live with at the moment.

For some animals nothing is going to save them unless poaching can be curtailed.
 
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#107
#107
bignewt said:
Yeah what a hero.

Screen-Shot-2016-02-26-at-10.29.08-AM.png
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he is still dressed in that photo ?
 
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#108
#108
hndog609 said:
I've run through this and it appears there needs to be a few things brought to the fore.

#1. Who cares about the actual plight of the animals? (elephants, rhinos, lions, doesn't matter) Lots of people, right? How many care in Africa? And I don't mean that "wouldn't it be nice" kinda care I mean the "make a difference at ground zero where the animals live" kinda care. To a great big huge chunk of the people that share space with those animals they can be anything from a nuisance to outright threat. I believe elephants kill something like 500ppl a year and the vast majority aren't hunters. More than likely most are just poor Africans trying to keep elephants from destroying their crops. This particular article involved lions but the context is the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?_r=0

#2. So the ugly truth is that average Joe African in the bush is dirt poor and just trying to scratch out a living. The giant feral hogs out there that need something like 400lbs a food a day will absolutely lay waste to crops. Problem elephants are either going to be culled by the government or snared/poisoned/shot by the locals. Obviously the idea is to keep the critters and the people separate, right? So this means the critters have to have someplace to be. As of 2015 there was more viable habitat land set aside in Africa for hunting than all the national parks combined. That accounts for more than half of viable wild animal habitat. Now ponder for a moment if the hunting went away. What's that land going to be used for? Cattle? Crops? Mining? I'll tell you this much...it sure as hell won't be payed for by people with interest in putting up with wild animals screwing up their profit/livelihood.

#3. So let's put this all together. Like so many things in this world we need to follow the money. Anybody with a clue should already know that by a large, large margin most of the killing of certain animals, rhino and elephant in particular as well as big cats, is not of the legal nature. This is because of money. They don't give a rat's rotting rectum about the viability of the species. There exists a pretty big legal hunting industry (most of which is not Big 5 related BTW) that very much cares about the viability of the species. That's because a properly managed hunting population is literally the gift that keeps on giving. Grow a lot, take a few, get paid, repeat. When the animals are gone the business is gone. Right now the only thing having any significant positive influence on some of these animals is the animals having worth. Again, I'm not talking about people in the Western Word swooning over the majesty of the African elephant/lion/rhino etc. All the good will in the world doesn't amount to much on the ground in Botswana. I'm talking about straight up money coming and going out of people's pockets. Right now hunting isn't a "fix" or "cure" but I'd sure like someone to point out, in cold pragmatic terms, what is doing more to keep viable habitat and animal populations having a demonstrable and real world value.

I hunt but I wouldn't shoot an elephant if you gave the permit. I'm simply not interested. I'm not particularly fond, as a personal matter, of hunting elephant and rhino but I've looked over the issue and can't find anything that measurably places more tangible value on the animals and their habitat than hunting. Call it "the right result for the wrong reason" if you must but that's the situation we're having to live with at the moment.

For some animals nothing is going to save them unless poaching can be curtailed.
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Very well put. I have no interest in hunting elephant or rhino either. I would love to see them in the wild though.
 
#110
#110
hndog609 said:
I hunt but I wouldn't shoot an elephant if you gave the permit. I'm simply not interested. I'm not particularly fond, as a personal matter, of hunting elephant and rhino but I've looked over the issue and can't find anything that measurably places more tangible value on the animals and their habitat than hunting. Call it "the right result for the wrong reason" if you must but that's the situation we're having to live with at the moment.

For some animals nothing is going to save them unless poaching can be curtailed.
Click to expand...

Are you talking monetary value? :crazy:


There are dozens of animal and habitat conservation parks in Africa. I think it goes without saying that the guys at the conservation parks value the lives of these elephants & rhinos more than the hunters. It is, in fact, their job to preserve & protect the park - whereas its a hunting outfits job to protect the assets, employ a small workforce for said protection, hire local guides and provide the necessary paperwork to hunt these animals.
 
#111
#111
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Are you talking monetary value? :crazy:


There are dozens of animal and habitat conservation parks in Africa. I think it goes without saying that the guys at the conservation parks value the lives of these elephants & rhinos more than the hunters. It is, in fact, their job to preserve & protect the park - whereas its a hunting outfits job to protect the assets, employ a small workforce for said protection, hire local guides and provide the necessary paperwork to hunt these animals.
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Great, super, nobody claims otherwise. I cited National Parks in my post. And plenty (hell, maybe even the majority) of elephants in those protected areas get poached. Just one example:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...tinction-minkebe-gabon-ivory-poaching/517266/

The point is that refusing to acknowledge the positive monetary influence of hunting which includes, probably most important of all, preservation of habitat is at best naive and at worst simply disingenuous.

And remember, this is coming from somebody that isn't really all that keen on killing elephants in principle...I just understand the realities of what's going on in Africa. And again, it's poaching that's the real enemy here. Even the hunters and the conservationists agree on that being the case.

Outstanding article which goes over many of the things I've mentioned plus a great deal more.

http://www.africanindaba.com/2014/03/kenya-wildlife-loved-to-death-march-2014-volume-12-2/
 
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#112
#112
So we all agree poachers are the real issue...kill poachers and we are all good.

but back to the OP, a trophy hunter killed by a dead elephant is at least ironic and at best kinda funny to me.

newt out.
 
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#114
#114
Anyone ever been to see the Dan Maddux mount collection at the Lewis County Museum of Natural History in Hohenwald?
 
#115
#115
My thought is that the best trophy hunting probably occurs in South Beach, Los Angeles or Las Vegas after you have made a pile of money.
 
#116
#116
Ulysees E. McGill said:
The extremist in your side of the argument are what make me angry. They play at being moderate to advance the agenda. I dont gave a problem with you if you are not one of them. I personally do not like hunting that is done just to put a trophy on the wall either, but if you give an inch the extremists take it all. That is a problem for me. I don't hear you saying that only trophy hunting is bad, all I hear are the jerks characterizing ALL hunters as sadistic killers. They can screw off.
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Hunting to fill your freezer with meat is totally different than hunting just to kill something big and rare. One is a valuable skill and provides an appreciation for our food that most of the population who just buy packaged meat at the store miss out on. The other is driven by ego and shows no respect to the lives of animals.
 
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#117
#117
jjay2518 said:
Hunting to fill your freezer with meat is totally different than hunting just to kill something big and rare. One is a valuable skill and provides an appreciation for our food that most of the population who just buy packaged meat at the store miss out on. The other is driven by ego and shows no respect to the lives of animals.
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We are in agreement.
 
#120
#120
VolunteerHillbilly said:
How do people know that trophy animal meat is not consumed? I bet that stuff gets gobbled down.
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It almost always is given to local villages. Unlike poachers who leave the corpse to rot.

Trophy hunting these large animals is essentially paying to say "gentlemen start your engines" at a NASCAR race. It's going to happen with or without you. If the govt/preserve can get additional funds by letting a hunter pay to shoot the animal, that's a no brainer decision. People seem to have the notion that these guys are just going out into the bush and shooting the first thing they see. The animal to be hunted has already been identified for destruction. If the hunter doesn't kill it the warden will. They are simply monetizing the trigger pull.
 
#121
#121
did they charge the elephant with trunk and disorderly?
 
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#123
#123
Godfatha said:
How about just hunting poachers? Better sport and would actually do some good.
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The crappy part about that is a good chunk of the poachers are just poor Africans trying to make a buck to stay alive. We should damn sure be able to hunt the people contracting/financing the poaching.
 
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