Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[chuckiepoo]

It's far from an accurate or objective analysis to compare Coach's salaries in two different sports. There is something called "market value".. The highest paid Div I softball coach is Patti Gasso at 1.25 million annually. Weekly is paid $340,000 annually and she;'s the #10 in the top 10. So the vast majority makes less than 200K. The market value for this position doesn't compare to Div ! Basketballl at all. There's way too much room for subjectivity when comparing.

In Basketball the top 25 coaches make 700K up and the top 10 all over a million. There is no way to objectively use one sport's salaries to prove a point to others. Would you compare the salaries of a lawyer and an factory worker to make a point?

Lastly, when comparing coaches of the same sport I do agree Weekly is way underpaid.....Kelly has had more success than some of the names making more money (Scott Rueck, Courtney Banghart, Joni Taylor, Kim Barnes Arico) Just my opinion

Lisa Bluder	Iowa	$1,091,394 million
9	Kelly Graves	Oregon	$1,025,000 million
10	Adia Barnes	Arizona	$1,012,000 million
11	Kevin McGuff	Ohio State	$980,860
12	Sue Semrau	Florida State	$975,333
13	Wes Moore	North Carolina St.	$895,000
14	Scott Rueck	Oregon State	$879,452
15	Kim Barnes Arico	Michigan	$853,000
16	Joni Taylor	Georgia	$850,000
17	Courtney Banghart	North Carolina	$840,000
18	Kellie Harper	Tennessee	$800,000

..old numbers. Kellie is at 1.1M

 

[Bakers1]

..old numbers. Kellie is at 1.1M

Which puts her I the same breath as Graves and Barnes.. I have no issue if comparing the 3..

Just like companies, Universities may have different budgets and salaries for the same employees. Universities wiith the help of state funding creates salary ranges for coaches. One University might have the ability to offer more where another doesn't. You have to consider what donors are willing to pay, revenue from program, athletic department priorities ex,. IU won't spend a lot of money on a football coach because it's not their priority basketball is....We have no idea what each individual contract says. Maybe a coach is accepting less salary but has more in incentives. Maybe a coach is ok with making less because they are happy and don't want to uproot a family.

There are so many parts to this that you can't just look at salaries as the end all.

If I am going just by the numbers it looks like Kelly is paid appropriately. Again Weekly looks underpaid but to really know you have to know a lot more than only the annual salary.

 

[Bakers1]

I’m all for fair market value. This evolved as it was said by another poster “I would not pin Kellie as a highly compensated coach. Women's salaries have increased as they should.” 3Meeks

At 1.1M, I’d say that is more than compensated under fair market value on no titles to show. I used Karen as someone who is under compensated for longevity and championships.

Like I said in anther post maybe softball isn't a priority for UT or maybe she's happy there and ok with a lower salary. We don't know but on the surface she looks grossly underpaid.

As far as Kellie goes if I look at the coaches making about the same there's argument for her to be in the same range. Graves and McGuff haven't won a championship and Ohio State had some down years until recently. Bluder has been around a lot longer but her results until she had Clark were just ok.

 

[Coach Jumper]

KJH needs and deserves a raise. No way LV head coach should not receive top ten money!

Holly's teams won, not because of her, but, in spite of her.

Before I say Coach Kellie deserves top ten money she has to, at least in my eyes, grow as an "in-game coach"
Last season in games:
-Not taking a timeout to interrupt momentum and then going home with timeouts in her pocket
-subbing erratic and without purpose
-No immediate repercussions for bonehead turnovers
-going deep into the season staying with a starting lineup that puts us in an immediate come from behind setting
-Not putting "importance" on starting/starters

This year she has a much stronger team, Jordan Horston, notwithstanding

This year I expect the growth to come from the bench, more than the players
Elite 8 is my Mendoza line and Final 4 is my absolute expectation

So far Kellie has led us to a round of 32 loss and two S16's,,that is not top ten worthy,,,especially for a Lady Vol team!

And remember folks, I back Coach Kellie,,,absolutely 100%
But I also post as a coach and fully expect coaching to grow along with the team

I know the negavols are smiling right now,,thinking I am one of theirs...
"he!! NO!, you four are on your own!"

Bottom line for me to fight for more pay for Coach K...I have to be able to say "We won because of coaching",, not because of the roster
And right now I can't say that

 

[turbovol]

Holly's teams won, not because of her, but, in spite of her.

Before I say Coach Kellie deserves top ten money she has to, at least in my eyes, grow as an "in-game coach"
Last season in games:
-Not taking a timeout to interrupt momentum and then going home with timeouts in her pocket
-subbing erratic and without purpose
-No immediate repercussions for bonehead turnovers
-going deep into the season staying with a starting lineup that puts us in an immediate come from behind setting
-Not putting "importance" on starting/starters

This year she has a much stronger team, Jordan Horston, notwithstanding

This year I expect the growth to come from the bench, more than the players
Elite 8 is my Mendoza line and Final 4 is my absolute expectation

So far Kellie has led us to a round of 32 loss and two S16's,,that is not top ten worthy,,,especially for a Lady Vol team!

And remember folks, I back Coach Kellie,,,absolutely 100%
But I also post as a coach and fully expect coaching to grow along with the team

I know the negavols are smiling right now,,thinking I am one of theirs...
"he!! NO!, you four are on your own!"

Bottom line for me to fight for more pay for Coach K...I have to be able to say "We won because of coaching",, not because of the roster
And right now I can't say that

Harper has been a head coach for, what, 20 years? She is what she is. She's not going to magically become a better coach--in-game or otherwise.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Harper has been a head coach for, what, 20 years? She is what she is. She's not going to magically become a better coach--in-game or otherwise.

I have been a coach for 43 years,, there's no way I learned more in my first 20 than in my second 23

It's just like any stage of life or job-life,, you come in thinking you know it all and Then at some point, you realize you really don't. It's then when you start learning The most

 

[glv98]

Harper has been a head coach for, what, 20 years? She is what she is. She's not going to magically become a better coach--in-game or otherwise.

My shred of hope hangs on the fact she's never had this much talent to work with. She's probably never going to get a better opportunity for a significant move forward than now. If she can't get it done this upcoming season, I'm probably ready to say yeah, she is what she is.

Lol I said that last year too, but I give her a mulligan.

 

[Volfan2012]

My shred of hope hangs on the fact she's never had this much talent to work with. She's probably never going to get a better opportunity for a significant move forward than now. If she can't get it done this upcoming season, I'm probably ready to say yeah, she is what she is.

Lol I said that last year too, but I give her a mulligan.

She still has probably the third best talent in the SEC, but she does have two out of three games at home with those teams. I would like to see us moving upward, but the truth is next season we have nobody at this time to replace Rickea and Tamari so unless that happens somehow which seems unlikely we'll be heading downward. You need post players that are elite to win in the SEC and don't see where they will be coming from at this time going forward.

 

[madtownvol]

She still has probably the third best talent in the SEC, but she does have two out of three games at home with those teams. I would like to see us moving upward, but the truth is next season we have nobody at this time to replace Rickea and Tamari so unless that happens somehow which seems unlikely we'll be heading downward. You need post players that are elite to win in the SEC and don't see where they will be coming from at this time going forward.

With the transfer portal, you never know. If the LVs make it to the final four (which they have the talent to do), that could turn the heads of players looking for greener pastures.

 

[Coach Jumper]

With the transfer portal, you never know. If the LVs make it to the final four (which they have the talent to do), that could turns some heads of players looking for greener pastures.

Perfectly answered

 

[stllvf]

I agree and have recognized the team not winning the game to get into the final 8 has impacted recruiting the top HS players

 

[Darth_Vol]

My shred of hope hangs on the fact she's never had this much talent to work with. She's probably never going to get a better opportunity for a significant move forward than now. If she can't get it done this upcoming season, I'm probably ready to say yeah, she is what she is.

Lol I said that last year too, but I give her a mulligan.

Don't you know the team would have gone to the Final Four last season if Key hadn't been injured?

Here's the thing - history shows the chances of getting through a season without at least one significant injury that leads to games lost or limited play are slim to none, but her defenders will always go back to playing that card. This circular reasoning was a factor in keeping Holly on the job way past her expiration date -- various injuries to Izzy Harrison, Mercedes Russell, Ariel Massengale, Diamond, etc. became a convenient crutch to explain consistent underwhelming performances.

I could definitely see history repeating itself this season at the first sign of an injury... but Kellie still is able to muster up a third place SEC finish and maybe make another Sweet 16 which is just good enough to keep the pitchforks away. Sign her to another extension, repeat...

 

[Majors]

Don't you know the team would have gone to the Final Four last season if Key hadn't been injured?

Here's the thing - history shows the chances of getting through a season without at least one significant injury that leads to games lost or limited play are slim to none, but her defenders will always go back to playing that card. This circular reasoning was a factor in keeping Holly on the job way past her expiration date -- various injuries to Izzy Harrison, Mercedes Russell, Ariel Massengale, Diamond, etc. became a convenient crutch to explain consistent underwhelming performances.

I could definitely see history repeating itself this season at the first sign of an injury... but Kellie still is able to muster up a third place SEC finish and maybe make another Sweet 16 which is just good enough to keep the pitchforks away. Sign her to another extension, repeat...

Has a different feel in the air this year. Last year was preseason F4 talk to miss the mark big. Now we have some questioning (like others before) if she can’t do it now with her best roster, not the best roster. Than when will she…seems more are shying away from the S16 is safe in year 5 for a 20 year coach.

 

[Volfan2012]

With the transfer portal, you never know. If the LVs make it to the final four (which they have the talent to do), that could turn the heads of players looking for greener pastures.

Hopefully cause it has to be the option even if we get freshmen in the next class.

 

[Dak1219]

She still has probably the third best talent in the SEC, but she does have two out of three games at home with those teams. I would like to see us moving upward, but the truth is next season we have nobody at this time to replace Rickea and Tamari so unless that happens somehow which seems unlikely we'll be heading downward. You need post players that are elite to win in the SEC and don't see where they will be coming from at this time going forward.

Even if Tamari doesn't come back next year, you still have the post game of last year's team that started and played significant minutes another full season and with two years experience in karoline striplin and Jillian hollingshed who I'm sure will both be much improved. Let's not forget Jill is one of the three lady vols who made team USA rosters this past summer. There's not as much talk about her but she is extremely talented and wants to get better every day. The cupboard is not empty for 24-25 by any stretch of the imagination

 

[Volfan2012]

Even if Tamari doesn't come back next year, you still have the post game of last year's team that started and played significant minutes another full season and with two years experience in karoline striplin and Jillian hollingshed who I'm sure will both be much improved. Let's not forget Jill is one of the three lady vols who made team USA rosters this past summer. There's not as much talk about her but she is extremely talented and wants to get better every day. The cupboard is not empty for 24-25 by any stretch of the imagination

Definitely true, but do we really want to dig that deep with two seniors coming back and no one from 2024 coming in from either the portal or freshmen. I don't think it is a good idea for 2024 or beyond cause there is the possibility of injury so I still think it has to be necessary to get some players in the 2024 class or from the portal that play the post.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

Holly's teams won, not because of her, but, in spite of her.

Before I say Coach Kellie deserves top ten money she has to, at least in my eyes, grow as an "in-game coach"
Last season in games:
-Not taking a timeout to interrupt momentum and then going home with timeouts in her pocket
-subbing erratic and without purpose
-No immediate repercussions for bonehead turnovers
-going deep into the season staying with a starting lineup that puts us in an immediate come from behind setting
-Not putting "importance" on starting/starters

This year she has a much stronger team, Jordan Horston, notwithstanding

This year I expect the growth to come from the bench, more than the players
Elite 8 is my Mendoza line and Final 4 is my absolute expectation

So far Kellie has led us to a round of 32 loss and two S16's,,that is not top ten worthy,,,especially for a Lady Vol team!

And remember folks, I back Coach Kellie,,,absolutely 100%
But I also post as a coach and fully expect coaching to grow along with the team

I know the negavols are smiling right now,,thinking I am one of theirs...
"he!! NO!, you four are on your own!"

Bottom line for me to fight for more pay for Coach K...I have to be able to say "We won because of coaching",, not because of the roster
And right now I can't say that

Holly was fired because she did not win enough games with really good talent.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Holly was fired because she did not win enough games with really good talent.

That is one reason for sure you might also Include no Repercussions for mistakes, no working the referees, erratic subbing, et cetera.

 

[Majors]

That is one reason for sure you might also Include no Repercussions for mistakes, no working the referees, erratic subbing, et cetera.

Were those most things that frustrated you last year with Harper?

 

[Coach Jumper]

Were those most things that frustrated you last year with Harper?

these are among the things that IMO Coach K has to work on
She has my full support ,,,FULL support!...But that doesn't mean I am a "yes-man"
I am/post as a coach and if I see areas of "need improvement" I will not ignore them
on the other hand, I am not eristic, like the four negavols on this site

 

[Majors]

these are among the things that IMO Coach K has to work on
She has my full support ,,,FULL support!...But that doesn't mean I am a "yes-man"
I am/post as a coach and if I see areas of "need improvement" I will not ignore them
on the other hand, I am not eristic, like the four negavols on this site

Others calling them out get labeled differently? All seeing the same games.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Others calling them out get labeled differently? All seeing the same games.

my negative posts are not personal attacks
nor or ALL of my posts negative

There are four posters on this site that continually post negativity and post personal attacks and I loathe each and every one of them,,,as do most of the true fans on this forum

 

[Majors]

my negative posts are not personal attacks
nor or ALL of my posts negative

There are four posters on this site that continually post negativity and post personal attacks and I loathe each and every one of them,,,as do most of the true fans on this forum

That’s fair on personal attacks. Just for understanding not everyone who doesn’t have the same pollyanna view is negative.

 

[Coach Jumper]

That’s fair on personal attacks. Just for understanding not everyone who doesn’t have the same pollyanna view is negative.

There are indeed Pollyanna's. Rainbows and unicorns. And I'm just as aggravated by them as I am by Those who continually post negative ... Not everything is rainbows and unicorns but again not everything is the sky is falling

 

[turbovol]

If I'm AD White, my attitude to Harper at this point would be brass tacks: Either
show genuine progress in the NCAA tourney, show that that program is on the ascendancy, show that you can
significantly improve recruiting, or I can't give you another extension.

The goal should be very plain---get the program back to the top, and there should be demonstrable evidence
of momentum in that direction. (There hasn't been.) I don't know if
White quite feels this way, but he should. We've muddled along with Harper for five years and could easily
muddle along with her for another five years. It depends on the expectations of the AD and the fans and
others at the school. Analyzed against the pedigree of the program, Harper has been mediocre. That's
the word. If we were Auburn or Southern Miss or Utah or pick 100 other schools, then I, as AD, might
be satisfied with the coach's performance to date. But we're not. We're a program with 8 national
titles, and so the expectations are--and should be--higher. I wouldn't be happy with a program that's
a 6 or 6.5 on a ten-point scale just because a former "Lady Vol" is in charge.

My expectations would be high, and I would not be averse to making a change--soon--if it
becomes clear that the current coach cannot meet those expectations. In 5 years has Harper made demonstrable
progress in getting us back into the national title picture? No, not at all. Coming in 3rd in the SEC, getting
into the NCAA, beating a couple of cupcakes at home and then again losing to the first decent team we play?
That's been our high-water mark under Harper. Not good enough. Lousy high-school recruiting year after year?
Uh, completely unacceptable.

White and others in his department should also be making a serious effort to assess other coaches and to identify a small number who seem to have
the smarts and the tenacity--the coaching success and the personality---to truly fire up this program. That's something that
Fulmer didn't do.