Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[madtownvol]

We don’t have all this Star Power as u say, we have one elite player in Rickea and one star in Spear, everything else is unknown. We need to see how this plays out.

I agree with you. A lot of things have to coalesce. The LVs are not more loaded than other top 10 teams.

But assuming Key is all the way back, Hollingshead continues on her improvement curve and Wells makes the transition to power 5 (a fair number of ifs), add in Rickea as the difference maker, we are dangerous. I still think this is a team that will have to hang its hat on defense (which slipped last season) and it will have to find more three point shooting.

 

[FormerLadyVolFan]

I hate to disappoint you folks, but unless the wheels fall off the wagon this season, there's not going to be a coaching change. Kellie and her staff are not only good coaches, but good people, and I know that's very important to our AD.

The recruiting landscape has changed over the years and UT is behind the the top teams in NIL money for women's basketball. Coach Sam is an excellent recruiter and has some top 10 HS talent committed, but the days of loading up on 5-star HS talent are over. Recruiting in the portal is much more impactful now, but again we struggle to compete with the teams with lots of NIL money.

Pat would have been able to get the money in her time, but Dave Hart dismantled the donor organization that raised big money for the Lady Vols during the Summitt era. We've got to figure out a way to get those type of donors to contribute to the NIL, or we'll never get back to where we were in Pat's heyday.

 

[creekdipper]

Grammar? English? I have a hard time reading and understanding gibberish.

But such fluent gibberish!

 

[creekdipper]

I knew i was muding creek when said about football. like tenn football coach jumper.

I do love a good mudding.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I posted should have posted on this thread. Then some one of the moderarater's move it in a few minutes. They had the same idea is you coach jumper. Thanks to which ever one of the moderarater's you are. Coach jumper this one streaming box is more easier to use than my fire sticks and it even give's subjects of what to say next. And it spelling words for me just click on top of the the key board. This makes it harder to speak mudcat thanks to which ever one of the moderarater's move this to this thread. Thank you moderarater's which ever one of you move this here this morning. @moderater's Thanks from mudcat.

MC,,,I don't care if you do speak in unique terms,,,your heart is orange and you undeniably back the Lady Vols,,,SO in my book, you are a cool cat! Never change my friend

 

[LadyVol1908]

People keep saying the days of high school recruiting is over and yet the same elite teams keep recruiting high school talent! Just stop it! I do believe if we make the FINAL FOUR this year, because EE isn’t going to cut it, our high school recruiting will improve.

 

[ttharp]

People keep saying the days of high school recruiting is over and yet the same elite teams keep recruiting high school talent! Just stop it! I do believe if we make the FINAL FOUR this year, because EE isn’t going to cut it, our high school recruiting will improve.

Agreed. Even if we're currently behind the top teams in NIL deals, I think the more glaring reality is showing itself: the TN legacy itself is no longer enough to sway high school recruits with generational talent. And as you mentioned, the elite programs and/or coaches who *continue* getting elite recruits were known for having winning programs pre NIL. They also recruited well before NIL became a factor.

If high-school recruits with generational talent came and put TN back on the map, NIL would take care of itself, IMO.

 

[turbovol]

I hate to disappoint you folks, but unless the wheels fall off the wagon this season, there's not going to be a coaching change. Kellie and her staff are not only good coaches, but good people, and I know that's very important to our AD.

The recruiting landscape has changed over the years and UT is behind the the top teams in NIL money for women's basketball. Coach Sam is an excellent recruiter and has some top 10 HS talent committed, but the days of loading up on 5-star HS talent are over. Recruiting in the portal is much more impactful now, but again we struggle to compete with the teams with lots of NIL money.

Pat would have been able to get the money in her time, but Dave Hart dismantled the donor organization that raised big money for the Lady Vols during the Summitt era. We've got to figure out a way to get those type of donors to contribute to the NIL, or we'll never get back to where we were in Pat's heyday.

Eh, this is silly.

Yes, White could keep Harper as coach FOREVER if her teams perform respectably, competitively, get in the NCAA regularly, win a game or two, and she continues to be a "good person"--doesn't decide to rob banks on the side to supplement her salary, say---even if she never gets us back to being a genuine national contender again. That's where we are now. So, yes, it's possible, depending ultimately on what the ambitions and standards of the AD are for the program. HW was a lousy coach but a good person (and good recruiter), and she lasted 7 years. Harper's been an upgrade--but she's not shown she can make us a national contender again. That would be my chief criteria for continued extensions, and if that expectation wasn't met--or within arm's reach, so to speak--within a reasonable time period, I'm sure that I (or any AD who felt the same way) could find another coach with more potential to push us up the national ladder who was also...a good person. My bet that 90 percent of the women's BB coaches in America are good people. Of course Harper also has the advantage of being a former PS player--a big reason she was hired in the first place--and so a certain block of the fans would consistently want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I give Fulmer credit for at least having the courage to yank the plug on the HW era, which may not have been so easy given her friend-of-Pat status.

RE recruiting, do you actually know what other schools are doing in terms of NIL? I doubt it. That idea/excuse gets tossed out by the diehards reguarly to explain our recruiting woes. Are we supposed to believe that ALL the schools that have landed the top 30 prospects are offering those prospects lucrative NIL deals that are beyond us? I'm absolutely not a fan of NIL recruiting bribery--it's corrupt and a joke--but I'm very skeptical that NIL is the major reason that we've done so poorly with so very many HS prospects. It's seems quite likely that Coach Sam is not as "excellent" as advertised--or maybe the problem is with the head coach, who can't close. There's been a disconnect somewhere. The portal has become important, true, but relying on it to bail out your recruiting every year is risky. You need good HS base to build around. If we can keep bringing in top portal prospects, great, but it's not easy to do every year.

 

[FormerLadyVolFan]

Sorry that my post doesn't fit your agenda. Let's just say that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the situation at Tennessee. All of the things I said are true.

I have personal knowledge of recruits who want to be a Lady Vol but got a better 'offer' from another school. Coach Sam was the recruiter who got Louisville where they are now - she has contacts that go years deep. She now has to recruit in a totally different environment and we're behind in NIL funds.

Mulkey bought, er, built, her entire team with portal players. Portal players are actually a safer bet than high school players because you have a better idea of what you're getting. Mulkey also has decided that she's going to play a 'Reverse UConn' schedule- light on non-conference foes before playing tough conference games. As a Lady Vol fan who actually attends games, I don't want to see that. It almost bit them in the butt last year in NCAA seeding, but favorable match-ups, including Utah missing free throws, got them to the championship game.

Eh, this is silly.

Yes, White could keep Harper as coach FOREVER if her teams perform respectably, competitively, get in the NCAA regularly, win a game or two, and she continues to be a "good person"--doesn't decide to rob banks on the side to supplement her salary, say---even if she never gets us back to being a genuine national contender again. That's where we are now. So, yes, it's possible, depending ultimately on what the ambitions and standards of the AD are for the program. HW was a lousy coach but a good person (and good recruiter), and she lasted 7 years. Harper's been an upgrade--but she's not shown she can make us a national contender again. That would be my chief criteria for continued extensions, and if that expectation wasn't met--or within arm's reach, so to speak--within a reasonable time period, I'm sure that I (or any AD who felt the same way) could find another coach with more potential to push us up the national ladder who was also...a good person. My bet that 90 percent of the women's BB coaches in America are good people. Of course Harper also has the advantage of being a former PS player--a big reason she was hired in the first place--and so a certain block of the fans would consistently want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I give Fulmer credit for at least having the courage to yank the plug on the HW era, which may not have been so easy given her friend-of-Pat status.

RE recruiting, do you actually know what other schools are doing in terms of NIL? I doubt it. That idea/excuse gets tossed out by the diehards reguarly to explain our recruiting woes. Are we supposed to believe that ALL the schools that have landed the top 30 prospects are offering those prospects lucrative NIL deals that are beyond us? I'm absolutely not a fan of NIL recruiting bribery--it's corrupt and a joke--but I'm very skeptical that NIL is the major reason that we've done so poorly with so very many HS prospects. It's seems quite likely that Coach Sam is not as "excellent" as advertised--or maybe the problem is with the head coach, who can't close. There's been a disconnect somewhere. The portal has become important, true, but relying on it to bail out your recruiting every year is risky. You need good HS base to build around. If we can keep bringing in top portal prospects, great, but it's not easy to do every year.

 

[Volfan2012]

I hate to disappoint you folks, but unless the wheels fall off the wagon this season, there's not going to be a coaching change. Kellie and her staff are not only good coaches, but good people, and I know that's very important to our AD.

The recruiting landscape has changed over the years and UT is behind the the top teams in NIL money for women's basketball. Coach Sam is an excellent recruiter and has some top 10 HS talent committed, but the days of loading up on 5-star HS talent are over. Recruiting in the portal is much more impactful now, but again we struggle to compete with the teams with lots of NIL money.

Pat would have been able to get the money in her time, but Dave Hart dismantled the donor organization that raised big money for the Lady Vols during the Summitt era. We've got to figure out a way to get those type of donors to contribute to the NIL, or we'll never get back to where we were in Pat's heyday.

So do you have an explanation why Tennessee is behind in NIL funds. That is disappointing to hear since we have such huge fan support. What is Tennessee not doing?

 

[Coach Jumper]

RE recruiting, do you actually know what other schools are doing in terms of NIL? I doubt it.

@EarlVolFan knows a helluva lot more than you do regarding this subject...I know hiw personally and if he says something, unlike you, it is based on knowledge,,,not assumption

 

[Volfan2012]

@EarlVolFan knows a helluva lot more than you do regarding this subject...I know hiw personally and if he says something, unlike you, it is based on knowledge,,,not assumption

Another subject you doing the opponent threads this year. No one has put up Carson Newman yet.

 

[Majors]

Sorry that my post doesn't fit your agenda. Let's just say that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the situation at Tennessee. All of the things I said are true.

I have personal knowledge of recruits who want to be a Lady Vol but got a better 'offer' from another school. Coach Sam was the recruiter who got Louisville where they are now - she has contacts that go years deep. She now has to recruit in a totally different environment and we're behind in NIL funds.

Mulkey bought, er, built, her entire team with portal players. Portal players are actually a safer bet than high school players because you have a better idea of what you're getting. Mulkey also has decided that she's going to play a 'Reverse UConn' schedule- light on non-conference foes before playing tough conference games. As a Lady Vol fan who actually attends games, I don't want to see that. It almost bit them in the butt last year in NCAA seeding, but favorable match-ups, including Utah missing free throws, got them to the championship game.

NIL started after Williams was hired here. So the start date and playing field was equal for everyone July 2021. “Better offer” could also mean, they didn’t want to be here in the end and it’s an easy fallback. Sounds as though we set the floor deal and next call is, this is what Tennessee has offered. Match or better and I’m playing for you coach.

 

[FormerLadyVolFan]

From my previous post...
"Dave Hart dismantled the donor organization that raised big money for the Lady Vols during the Summitt era"

So do you have an explanation why Tennessee is behind in NIL funds. That is disappointing to hear since we have such huge fan support. What is Tennessee not doing?

 

[turbovol]

@EarlVolFan knows a helluva lot more than you do regarding this subject...I know hiw personally and if he says something, unlike you, it is based on knowledge,,,not assumption

Really? Has he got inside information on the WBB NIL situation at the 30 other colleges that are beating us in recruiting? No, s/he doesn't. Thanks for the effort.

 

[FormerLadyVolFan]

I usually don't answer queries based on supposition, but remember that there were severe recruiting restrictions during COVID Just after Kellie was hired. Coach Sam didn't get hired until 4/21 - just as NIL hit the marketplace. It takes years to build relationships with the top players, but she already has several in the pipeline.

NIL started after Williams was hired here. So the start date and playing field was equal for everyone July 2021. “Better offer” could also mean, they didn’t want to be here in the end and it’s an easy fallback. Sounds as though we set the floor deal and next call is, this is what Tennessee has offered. Match or better and I’m playing for you coach.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Another subject you doing the opponent threads this year. No one has put up Carson Newman yet.

thanks for the reminder...will have it up asap

 

[Majors]

I usually don't answer queries based on supposition, but remember that there were severe recruiting restrictions during COVID Just after Kellie was hired. Coach Sam didn't get hired until 4/21 - just as NIL hit the marketplace. It takes years to build relationships with the top players, but she already has several in the pipeline.

I respectfully disagree. Everyone felt the impacts of Covid and everyone is navigating NIL. You stated Coach Sam has deep connections. Having the Tennessee brand should have easily parlayed that into business as usual for a “ace” recruiter. NIL is a built in excuse when we get left out. We secured Rickea, as well as a solid portal class…did that come at a bargain? Winning and winning big cures all and to this point heading into year 5 that’s not the case.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Really? Has he got inside information on the WBB NIL situation at the 30 other colleges that are beating us in recruiting? No, s/he doesn't. Thanks for the effort.

I am sure he has more verifiable information that you,,,and he has no negative agenda like you seem to have

 

[ttharp]

I respectfully disagree. Everyone felt the impacts of Covid and everyone is navigating NIL. You stated Coach Sam has deep connections. Having the Tennessee brand should have easily parlayed that into business as usual for a “ace” recruiter. NIL is a built in excuse when we get left out. We secured Rickea, as well as a solid portal class…did that come at a bargain? Winning and winning big cures all and to this point heading into year 5 that’s not the case.

Yes. This. I also don't like the Lacey erasure. Whenever TN signed a top-10 recruiting class going into Kellie's 2nd year, who was the recruiting coordinator? In Oct 2020 when Justine, (the first 5-star recruit of the KJH era), verballed who was the recruiting coordinator? At that juncture there was less talk about Kellie needing more time to develop relationships. Many where saying HS recruiting would only get better and lead to top five classes. And that talk increased even more when Coach Sam was hired because allegedly Goldwire wasn't getting the job done. As it sits, she did a better job as far as *HS* recruiting is concerned.

She also was recruiting coordinator when TN signed transfers Keyen Green and Jordan Walker. Two players that helped keep TN afloat -- and played pretty big roles in restoring the culture, according to Kellie.

 

[glv98]

This is being made out much more dramatic and complicated than it actually is. Shocking I know for a fan forum.

KJH made very plain in the preview vid that her goal is to return to competing for championships and to get/stay on an FF level. In her fifth yr, with 20 yrs coaching experience, the best roster and the best player she's ever had, she should definitely take the next step forward this season. If she does not, it will be fair to eval whether she ever will, and also whether that is indeed the goal for the program.

No one says she should be fired on the spot, and most realize the "step forward" doesn't necessarily mean FF or natty or bust this year. For the millionth time, we'll know the step forward when we see it. Win some dadgumm big games and we'll go from there. Repeat, starting in a couple of weeks, Kellie Harper MUST win key games against elite opponents. Period.

 

[VOLPAT]

Some have called it hyperbole, but here's where the current team stands now about a third of the way through the season:

Field Goal Percentage: .398 WORST IN SCHOOL HISTORY (next lowest .408 in 2015-16)

Free Throw Percentage: .589 WORST IN SCHOOL HISTORY (next lowest is .627 in 1985-86)

Three Point Percentage: .278 THIRD WORST IN SCHOOL HISTORY (two worst were .231 in 1988-89, .254 in 2015-16)

Points Per Game: 66.9 SECOND WORST IN SCHOOL HISTORY (worst was 65.6 in 2015-16)

Assists Per Game: 12.9 TIED FOR WORST IN SCHOOL HISTORY (the 1992-93 team actually finished with 12.91)

What would life be without you, Mr Sunshine?

 

[creekdipper]

Stay hungry.

 

[Remy]

This is being made out much more dramatic and complicated than it actually is. Shocking I know for a fan forum.

KJH made very plain in the preview vid that her goal is to return to competing for championships and to get/stay on an FF level. In her fifth yr, with 20 yrs coaching experience, the best roster and the best player she's ever had, she should definitely take the next step forward this season. If she does not, it will be fair to eval whether she ever will, and also whether that is indeed the goal for the program.

No one says she should be fired on the spot, and most realize the "step forward" doesn't necessarily mean FF or natty or bust this year. For the millionth time, we'll know the step forward when we see it. Win some dadgumm big games and we'll go from there. Repeat, starting in a couple of weeks, Kellie Harper MUST win key games against elite opponents. Period.

er excuse me but didn't we beat LSU, you know the defending National Champions last May in the SEC tournament? Would you consider that a "dadgumm big game" or "key game" enough for ya? I'll hang up and lissen.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

er excuse me but didn't we beat LSU, you know the defending National Champions last May in the SEC tournament? Would you consider that a "dadgumm big game" or "key game" enough for ya? I'll hang up and lissen.

The only thing I will say about that is most people on here said Lsu wasn’t good and they won by luck, so by that logic that wasn’t a good win.