Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[madtownvol]

Nope. I think they should hire the best person for the job, which they clearly aren't doing that often...coach Harper being an example

People use the term affirmative action without knowing what it means.

Myth: Affirmative action rewards gender and race at the expense of merit. Reality: This is unlawful. Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, you cannot base a hiring decision, in whole or in part, on a person's race or gender. In addition, under Executive Order 11246, a college or university must take affirmative steps to ensure its hiring practices are fair, equitable, and free from discrimination. Affirmative action is intended to ensure that employers hire the most qualified people, including members of groups that previously have been subject to unlawful discrimination.

Affirmative Action Myths and Realities | Human Resources

hr.uoregon.edu

 

[madtownvol]

Nope. I think they should hire the best person for the job, which they clearly aren't doing that often...coach Harper being an example

Okay, who was the better candidate that was passed over for Kellie? I am not talking pie-in-the-sky we should have hired Jeff Walz or Kim Mulkey fantasies. Who were the actual candidates, who applied for the job, that were "better qualified" than Kellie, who was just coming off a S16 appearance with Missouri St.?

Please enlighten us all.

 

[Volfan2012]

Okay, who was the better candidate that was passed over for Kellie? I am not talking pie-in-the-sky we should have hired Jeff Walz or Kim Mulkey fantasies. Who were the actual candidates, who applied for the job, that were "better qualified" than Kellie, who was just coming off a S16 appearance with Missouri St.?

Please enlighten us all.

Doubt they give you any names cause I think the only three were Harper, Tina Langley who is the Washington Huskie coach and Kara Lawson. So nobody.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

S

Same game different ball = not the same. But I get why people try to compare and align.

And different level of competition.

 

[leeeda97]

Okay, who was the better candidate that was passed over for Kellie? I am not talking pie-in-the-sky we should have hired Jeff Walz or Kim Mulkey fantasies. Who were the actual candidates, who applied for the job, that were "better qualified" than Kellie, who was just coming off a S16 appearance with Missouri St.?

Please enlighten us all.

Best person for the job doesn't = a sweet 16 birth ... that is a terrible metric. The LVs barely looked beyond their tree, didn't plan, didn't do a full scale search and this was the result. CKH just doesn't have the intensity to coach successfully at this level and that is evident immediately from her sideline demeanor. The entire program needs a system overhaul. The university needed to invest more to get more then and still does now or mediocrity will be the norm.

 

[madtownvol]

Best person for the job doesn't = a sweet 16 birth ... that is a terrible metric. The LVs barely looked beyond their tree, didn't plan, didn't do a full scale search and this was the result. CKH just doesn't have the intensity to coach successfully at this level and that is evident immediately from her sideline demeanor. The entire program needs a system overhaul. The university needed to invest more to get more then and still does now or mediocrity will be the norm.

How do you know they did not do a full scale search? And full scale has to take into account that there was time pressure to get a coach hired because the portal was open and Jordan Horston was hanging in the balance. As Volfan2012 noted, only 3 people applied for the opening.

 

[turbovol]

Okay, who was the better candidate that was passed over for Kellie? I am not talking pie-in-the-sky we should have hired Jeff Walz or Kim Mulkey fantasies. Who were the actual candidates, who applied for the job, that were "better qualified" than Kellie, who was just coming off a S16 appearance with Missouri St.?

Please enlighten us all.

Does anyone other than Fulmer and a few other people in the athletic department know what other candidates expressed an interest in the job or were considered in some way for the position? I don't think any of us know--and so without that info, it's impossible to answer your question. I certainly did not get the impression that Fulmer made an extensive search--quite the opposite, in fact. I vaguely recall reading that one or two other coaches were vetted, maybe interviewed--but it seemed he settled on Harper and Lawson as the top candidates pretty quickly--one having ZERO college coaching experience and the other with, at best, a middling coaching record. There's no doubt that Harper's getting Mo. State to the sweet 16 gave Fulmer just the justification he needed to hire another former player. It was almost a given that he was going to hire Harper with that accomplishment in her pocket. And it was a notable accomplishment, though if one looked at her overall record as a coach, one couldn't say; "Oh, she's perfect--she'll make us a contender again." I certainly didn't like that it seemed a lazy search, but even so I was cautiously optimistic about Harper. But she's been underwhelming for various reasons.

 

[madtownvol]

Does anyone other than Fulmer and a few other people in the athletic department know what other candidates expressed an interest in the job or were considered in some way for the position? I don't think any of us know--and so without that info, it's impossible to answer your question. I certainly did not get the impression that Fulmer made an extensive search--quite the opposite, in fact. I vaguely recall reading that one or two other coaches were vetted, maybe interviewed--but it seemed he settled on Harper and Lawson as the top candidates pretty quickly--one having ZERO college coaching experience and the other with, at best, a middling coaching record. There's no doubt that Harper's getting Mo. State to the sweet 16 gave Fulmer just the justification he needed to hire another former player. It was almost a given that he was going to hire Harper with that accomplishment in her pocket. And it was a notable accomplishment, though if one looked at her overall record as a coach, one couldn't say; "Oh, she's perfect--she'll make us a contender again." I certainly didn't like that it seemed a lazy search, but even so I was cautiously optimistic about Harper. But she's been underwhelming for various reasons.

I mean its not like Fulmer could just log into the equivalent of CarMax and select from a wide selection of coaches at various price points. There were limits on who was available and who was attainable.

We can look at Notre Dame, who hired Niele Ivey around the same time. At that time, ND was a more attractive job given where the programs were at and ND went with an assistant coach with no prior HC experience.

Sorry Fulmer was not getting Geno, Kim, Tara, or even Jeff Walz. Everyone assumes that Wes Moore would have jumped at the job but he was 7 years into his tenure at NCST and had just won the ACC tournament. It is not clear he would have left that position for a rebuilding job at age 63 (at the time).

There are people who also say, we should have gone for Shea Ralph who Kellie has owned in their head to head match-ups. Hard to square that one.

Some folks like to believe that the Tennessee LVs is the premier job in the country and that every coach of merit is checking their text messages daily to see if Danny White is interested in them. The facts really don't support that belief.

 

[Remy]

If it's not Kelly, what I'd like to see is UTAD look into coaches in their mid thirties to early forties, producing lights out winning teams year after year in small conferences where only their tournament champ goes or regular season champ goes to tournament And their team usually is one or the other. Perhaps look into the NAIA or small Catholic colleges for a coach that does a lot with less and is hungry as heck. If we find someone like that with the resources they've been used to they'll think they've died and gone to heaven coaching for UT. A coach used to winning will do everything they can to keep winning except when they get to comfortable.

 

[leeeda97]

How do you know they did not do a full scale search? And full scale has to take into account that there was time pressure to get a coach hired because the portal was open and Jordan Horston was hanging in the balance. As Volfan2012 noted, only 3 people applied for the opening.

Because their price point was low and two LVFLs were their top two candidates. No way a full search gets that result. You also can't truly do a full search that lures talent if you offer peanuts compared to other top programs.

 

[mtsuraider06]

Because their price point was low and two LVFLs were their top two candidates. No way a full search gets that result. You also can't truly do a full search that lures talent if you offer peanuts compared to other top programs.

If Tennessee had not been paying football buyouts at the time, they could’ve put more money into the search. Fact of the matter is that they could not. They reached out to several coaches and were turned down, and it wasn’t just for the money. The fanbase as a whole can be vicious and is very off putting to coaches. It involves every sport here. If you don’t win a NC in your first years, they want you gone and many coaches don’t want that pressure hanging over them. Let alone being constantly compared to Pat on a daily basis.

Kellie and Nicki knew what the fanbase was here and they were prepared for it. They knew the program from the inside out. Wes Moore was the only other that Fulmer interviewed but why leave a great job at NC State that he built?

As someone else said, Tennessee is not going to get a coach that has won a NC. Keep in mind, there are only five current coaches who have a ring. They are not leaving those jobs to come here.

 

[Hoosier_Vol]

I can submit my application if asked.

 

[Deebowbear]

If it's not Kelly, what I'd like to see is UTAD look into coaches in their mid thirties to early forties, producing lights out winning teams year after year in small conferences where only their tournament champ goes or regular season champ goes to tournament And their team usually is one or the other. Perhaps look into the NAIA or small Catholic colleges for a coach that does a lot with less and is hungry as heck. If we find someone like that with the resources they've been used to they'll think they've died and gone to heaven coaching for UT. A coach used to winning will do everything they can to keep winning except when they get to comfortable.

Rice coach Lindsey Edmonds would be a possibility

 

[StorrsCentral]

How do you know they did not do a full scale search? And full scale has to take into account that there was time pressure to get a coach hired because the portal was open and Jordan Horston was hanging in the balance. As Volfan2012 noted, only 3 people applied for the opening.

That is really hard to believe that only three coaches applied for the job, plus two of them were former LVOLs. I'm sure he didn't do the customary national search for a coach, just did what was easy and maybe what the powers that be wanted. If this is how Kellie got the job than he didn't put in the work to get the best candidate, only the one that was convenient.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

That is really hard to believe that only three coaches applied for the job, plus two of them were former LVOLs. I'm sure he didn't do the customary national search for a coach, just did what was easy and maybe what the powers that be wanted. If this is how Kellie got the job than he didn't put in the work to get the best candidate, only the one that was convenient.

This is the situation I have heard. Fulmer was caught up in fixing the FB program train wreck and finding a LV BB coach was something he didn't have time for. Not to mention he was an inexperienced AD and probably didn't have 'the replacement coaching list if needed' like most good AD's have. He just hired who he thought LV fans would be happy with.

And I'm not trashing Kellie here, I'm sure Fulmer thought she would be a good hire and he was big on staying in the family. Got to remember he had been good friends with Pat.

 

[Benionsopinion]

If Tennessee had not been paying football buyouts at the time, they could’ve put more money into the search. Fact of the matter is that they could not. They reached out to several coaches and were turned down, and it wasn’t just for the money. The fanbase as a whole can be vicious and is very off putting to coaches. It involves every sport here. If you don’t win a NC in your first years, they want you gone and many coaches don’t want that pressure hanging over them. Let alone being constantly compared to Pat on a daily basis.

Kellie and Nicki knew what the fanbase was here and they were prepared for it. They knew the program from the inside out. Wes Moore was the only other that Fulmer interviewed but why leave a great job at NC State that he built?

As someone else said, Tennessee is not going to get a coach that has won a NC. Keep in mind, there are only five current coaches who have a ring. They are not leaving those jobs to come here.

Raider,so good to hear from you again. I always look forward to your insightful and knowledgeable posts and have missed them lately! Hope all is well with you and your family.

 

[glv98]

As we've discussed before, the KJH hiring was a set of circumstances that came together for Fulmer that he just couldn't ignore. All the reasons stated are apparently true. He was football preoccupied, there was tepid interest from coaches available then, KJH was a beloved homegirl who happened to go on a Cinderella S16 run, and the hire met the demographic requirements of the pain-in-the-ass old guard. No way he was pushing through all that to do something bold.

I believe if/when the time comes, Danny White will be free and highly motivated to do something bold.

 

[madtownvol]

As we've discussed before, the KJH hiring was a set of circumstances that came together for Fulmer that he just couldn't ignore. All the reasons stated are apparently true. He was football preoccupied, there was tepid interest from coaches available then, KJH was a beloved homegirl who happened to go on a Cinderella S16 run, and the hire met the demographic requirements of the pain-in-the-ass old guard. No way he was pushing through all that to do something bold.

I believe if/when the time comes, Danny White will be free and highly motivated to do something bold.

The story of this season is still being written but I will go on record as saying that Kellie has done a good coaching job this season. Her main problem is not having enough quality/depth so she can be critiqued on that very important recruiting dimension but in terms of actual coaching, well let's break it down.

The top 5-7 preseason rankings assumed that RJ would be available and playing at an AA level; Spear and Wells fitting in quickly and being big time contributors and Key playing at a level close to her junior season. As we know, none of that panned out.

Even though we all thought Key was a lost cause after the first 10 games of the season, Kellie and staff were managing her perfectly and she is becoming an important contributor - not peak TK but solid enough.

When Wells went down with an ACL, myself and many others thought it was mistake to anoint Wynn as #2 PG but that decision has worked out quite well. Second, Kellie chose not to put added pressure on Spear who was still struggling to find her groove. JS is starting to become "that player" and she is now periodically shifting into the PG role, giving the LVs 3 options. Patience is a virtue.

Kellie kept the team motivated and believing during the tough stretch without RJ.

She has unlocked Powell, has helped Wynn to be much better than most anticipated her ever being, and helped Puckett rebuild her shattered confidence.

I think the argument that Kellie is incapable of coaching at a championship level is dead wrong,. The open question is whether she can recruit at a sufficiently high level to field a championship level teams. I think this team is on pace to finish 3rd in the SEC and make it to the S!6, even from a lower seed.

If that happens, despite the dark clouds hanging over the program after the Bama loss, KJH will be back at the helm next season. The 2024 portal and the 2025 class will likely determine how much longer that continues.

 

[volmanNC]

The good news is Kellie has set the bar low! I think plenty of coaches will be interested in the job if she is fired.

 

[JohnnyPayne]

The good news is Kellie has set the bar low! I think plenty of coaches will be interested in the job if she is fired.

There’s only one team that has a better average SEC finish during KJH’s time. That’s South Carolina. Essentially the LV’s are the 2nd best team in the last 5 years and currently 3rd. This board is wild and also I’m sure not helpful with recruits if they see this.

 

[Majors]

There’s only one team that has a better average SEC finish during KJH’s time. That’s South Carolina. Essentially the LV’s are the 2nd best team in the last 5 years and currently 3rd. This board is wild and also I’m sure not helpful with recruits if they see this.

Shows how bad the league after SC in the selected window.The gloss over is LSU won a title in smaller time frame and defaulted our fans to accept third.

 

[volmanNC]

There’s only one team that has a better average SEC finish during KJH’s time. That’s South Carolina. Essentially the LV’s are the 2nd best team in the last 5 years and currently 3rd. This board is wild and also I’m sure not helpful with recruits if they see this.

What a Negavol... I guess you want to keep the team down forever! Do you realize the current team in not in the top 30 teams. Heck, not even the best team in Tenn. (MTSU beat the Vols)

 

[Dansky]

Shows how bad the league after SC in the selected window.The gloss over is LSU won a title in smaller time frame and defaulted our fans to accept third.

Yep the SEC is just S.C. LSU, and a whole bunch of bad to mediocre teams . so the lady Vols are the best of that group right now. If that’s our goal we have met it This year. we can probably get in ncaa since they have to take more than two teams and Tennessee is playing well right now and have a history to tell.

 

[knoxvol52]

There’s only one team that has a better average SEC finish during KJH’s time. That’s South Carolina. Essentially the LV’s are the 2nd best team in the last 5 years and currently 3rd. This board is wild and also I’m sure not helpful with recruits if they see this.

Like recruits scurry to see what's being posted on VolNation,I'm not buying that BS.
If you would've said twitter than yes.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Like recruits scurry to see what's being posted on VolNation,I'm not buying that BS.
If you would've said twitter than yes.

I KNOW! better knoxvol,,,they monitor this site
maybe not all of them,,,but the important ones do
right now,,,Especially THIS thread

There are more posts on this site re Kellie in a week than there are on Twitter in a month