Let Us Leave Germany

[carlos86]

It absolutely does not. I was stationed in Europe. The deter aggression is a cold war relic used to justify the presence in many of those countries. It got Iceland shut down once people realized it served zero purpose after the cold war and was a giant waste of money. So pray tell what "Aggression" do you think the forces in Germany are assisting in preventing?

U.S. Forces have returned to Iceland in the last 8 years just as our forces had to return to Germany. And things have changed since Russia deployed the 1st Guards Tank Army and ballistic missiles to Kaliningrad German forces as I know are coward deployed in Lithuania and is beefing up its Air Forces by buying around 45 F/A-18 and 93 Eurofighters. Along with the modernization of its Panzer divisions.

 

[carlos86]

It's not 1962 anymore. We have QRF that can be any place in the world in 24 hours. We have satellites that can see a mouse fart. We have nuclear carriers that can cover massive ranges. The element of surprise in conventional warfare is gone. A tank division in Germany doesn't deter action. The technology advancements of the last 50 years deter that nicely.

That’s one brigade from the 82nd Airborne. You have to move mechanized and armored brigades by sealift not airlift (a conversation about the deterioration of our sealift capabilities should be saved for another day.)

The Russians proved that they can camouflage movements of their large formations from satellite intelligence. They moved an entire Motorized Corps to the Ukrainian border Without anyone noticing until it was too late.

 

[NorthDallas40]

That’s one brigade from the 82nd Airborne. You have to move mechanized and armored brigades by sealift not airlift (a conversation about the deterioration of our sealift capabilities should be saved for another day.)

The Russians proved that they can camouflage movements of their large formations from satellite intelligence. They moved an entire Motorized Corps to the Ukrainian border Without anyone noticing until it was too late.

We simply cannot afford your “we need to stop the Russian boogeyman” fear tactic anymore Carlos and as was stated we don’t need to. We have multiple QRF’s also, the 10th Mountain has one too. We have better hard intelligence assets today than the 1950’s when this ideology began and they’re getting better all the time.

Your 1950’s ideology simply makes no sense in this day and age. And with specific regard to Germany it makes zero sense for us to “defend” them while they are making strategic long term energy agreements freely with the “enemy” we are there to defend them from FFS.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It also puts them dependent on Russia for energy. And you know that too but now you’re gonna get all pissy and argue it.

Why is that any better or worse than being dependent on more expensive and less reliable American LNG?

It is in Germany's best interest to use Russian gas. Facts.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

U.S. Forces have returned to Iceland in the last 8 years just as our forces had to return to Germany. And things have changed since Russia deployed the 1st Guards Tank Army and ballistic missiles to Kaliningrad German forces as I know are coward deployed in Lithuania and is beefing up its Air Forces by buying around 45 F/A-18 and 93 Eurofighters. Along with the modernization of its Panzer divisions.

So wait, are you still fighting the Cold War?

Let Poland, Germany, UK, The Baltic States and France defend themselves if they are worried about Russian aggression. Outside of that, we have no need to be concerning ourselves in European affairs.

 

[McDad]

The National Defense Strategy prioritizes the forward presence of American forces. The NDS emphasizes a posture of deterrence by denial, which seeks to deny adversaries their attempted conquests in the first place. Cutting our forces in Germany not only reduces our forward presence and our ability to deter aggression in Europe and around the world but it will end up costing us more. Alliances are fragile and make no mistake, we need the Germans every bit as much as they need us. I’m looking forward to the policy being reversed and V Corps headquarters at Fort Knox being moved to Germany.

Strategy used to be have a strong calvary, and later, establish trenches.

Time to evolve again.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Why is that any better or worse than being dependent on more expensive and less reliable American LNG?

It is in Germany's best interest to use Russian gas. Facts.

Fine by me. And let Russia defend them from the Russian boogeyman also we sure as hell shouldn’t be doing it.

Look we all know you’re pro Russian expansion. It’s clear as day. And this fits nicely into the ideology you support. Instead of putting up some silly defense Germany and Russia getting closer you should just sit back be quiet and giggle.

Germany is a willing lamb it seems. Fine let’s step aside completely and let the chips fall. After all this IS what you want Ras!

 

[McDad]

@Rasputin_Vol you had an eloquent and insightful post in the "perception" thread.

Would you mind discussing your Russia bias (if there is one)? Also, if not a bias what is the official Ras position on Russia?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Fine by me. And let Russia defend them from the Russian boogeyman also we sure as hell shouldn’t be doing it.

Look we all know you’re pro Russian expansion. It’s clear as day. And this fits nicely into the ideology you support. Instead of putting up some silly defense Germany and Russia getting closer you should just sit back be quiet and giggle.

Germany is a willing lamb it seems. Fine let’s step aside completely and let the chips fall. After all this IS what you want Ras!

Really? I fundamentally disagree with our 70 year old European strategy where we portray Russia as the enemy. It ignores the fact that we won the Cold War and defeated communism. Unfortunately, we still want to treat Russia as a bogeyman because we apparently have other ulterior motives in Europe.

 

[FLVOL_79]

U.S. Forces have returned to Iceland in the last 8 years just as our forces had to return to Germany. And things have changed since Russia deployed the 1st Guards Tank Army and ballistic missiles to Kaliningrad German forces as I know are coward deployed in Lithuania and is beefing up its Air Forces by buying around 45 F/A-18 and 93 Eurofighters. Along with the modernization of its Panzer divisions.

Oh boy....US forces visit Iceland, they "haven't gone back. They arent the islands defense force anymore. There was a rescue squadron (which I was part of) and and continuous rotation of F-15s that were there when it was an actual US base. Thats gone. The long range radars? All gone. Now its just a fueling stop for the rotater coming back from over seas. For some reason I thought you were in the service but that can't be right with your poor knowledge of the military.

Cudos to sticking with your anti-Trumpism no matter what. Its weird seeing you libs become "war hawks" now. haha

 

[FLVOL_79]

That’s one brigade from the 82nd Airborne. You have to move mechanized and armored brigades by sealift not airlift (a conversation about the deterioration of our sealift capabilities should be saved for another day.)

The Russians proved that they can camouflage movements of their large formations from satellite intelligence. They moved an entire Motorized Corps to the Ukrainian border Without anyone noticing until it was too late.

Jesus. You dont need a brigade to project power. The US can easily move enough armor and troops through the air and be anywhere in less than 24 hours.

 

[carlos86]

We simply cannot afford your “we need to stop the Russian boogeyman” fear tactic anymore Carlos and as was stated we don’t need to. We have multiple QRF’s also, the 10th Mountain has one too. We have better hard intelligence assets today than the 1950’s when this ideology began and they’re getting better all the time.

Your 1950’s ideology simply makes no sense in this day and age. And with specific regard to Germany it makes zero sense for us to “defend” them while they are making strategic long term energy agreements freely with the “enemy” we are there to defend them from FFS.

It’s cost $8.13 billion to station forces in Germany. The development of the F-35A,B and C cost $1.1 trillion over 10 years. So tell me again we can’t afford it. And again 2nd BCT, 10th Mountain and whichever BCT from the 82nd Airborne are light Infantry Brigades. Which is why according the the NDS two armored brigades are stationed in Germany and the rapid deployment brigades are to come in reserve.

 

[McDad]

It’s cost $8.13 billion to station forces in Germany. The development of the F-35A,B and C cost $1.1 trillion over 10 years. So tell me again we can’t afford it. And again 2nd BCT, 10th Mountain and whichever BCT from the 82nd Airborne are light Infantry Brigades. Which is why according the the NDS two armored brigades are stationed in Germany and the rapid deployment brigades are to come in reserve.

We are 30T in debt. New fiduciary realities requires new budgetary consequences.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Really? I fundamentally disagree with our 70 year old European strategy where we portray Russia as the enemy. It ignores the fact that we won the Cold War and defeated communism. Unfortunately, we still want to treat Russia as a bogeyman because we apparently have other ulterior motives in Europe.

Yes you are pro Russian expansion. You can also be against our global posturing methods the two issues aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact they are supportive. Your stance rings clear in the Crimea fiasco thread. And the Venezuela thread. And any Russian satellite/puppet thread.

But in this case why feign otherwise. Just sit back and grin because if Russia actually does gain influence over Germany...

 

[NorthDallas40]

It’s cost $8.13 billion to station forces in Germany. The development of the F-35A,B and C cost $1.1 trillion over 10 years. So tell me again we can’t afford it. And again 2nd BCT, 10th Mountain and whichever BCT from the 82nd Airborne are light Infantry Brigades. Which is why according the the NDS two armored brigades are stationed in Germany and the rapid deployment brigades are to come in reserve.

We can’t afford it. There I told you again. And the world as a whole is no longer buying your 1950’s Russian boogeyman agenda. Not in the Germany case anyway. Hell those idiots want to be tight with Russia so F them.

 

[carlos86]

Oh boy....US forces visit Iceland, they "haven't gone back. They arent the islands defense force anymore. There was a rescue squadron (which I was part of) and and continuous rotation of F-15s that were there when it was an actual US base. Thats gone. The long range radars? All gone. Now its just a fueling stop for the rotater coming back from over seas. For some reason I thought you were in the service but that can't be right with your poor knowledge of the military.

Cudos to sticking with your anti-Trumpism no matter what. Its weird seeing you libs become "war hawks" now. haha

The navy permanently deployed its forces to Iceland along withAir Forces and NATO AWACS aircraft since 2016 along with the Marine permanently deploying to Norway. The F-15s that were once there have been replaced by the Icelandic Air Policing Force which rotaries between the U.S. and NATO air forces. I think Norwegian F-35s are there now.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

@Rasputin_Vol you had an eloquent and insightful post in the "perception" thread.

Would you mind discussing your Russia bias (if there is one)? Also, if not a bias what is the official Ras position on Russia?

We should be proud of playing a part in crushing The Soviets and communism in Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, instead of us declaring victory and gradually pulling out of Europe, we still wanted to justify a need for having NATO and troops in the region. Along with that, some of the same interests that are today ripping apart this country right now had their hands in Russia looting and picking off their assets... while millions in Russia died in the 1990s during the Soviet collapse and corrupt reign of Yeltsin. All of this is discussed by William Engdahl in his book "Manifest Destiny", in particular in the chapter called "The Rape of Russia".

The Rape of Russia (Saker blog exclusive interview) | The Vineyard of the Saker



Let me go back to my comment earlier where I said "playing a part in crushing The Soviets". Along with our pressure on the Soviets, you also had the USSR simply coming apart from within. They had suffered under 70+ years of tyranny and the loss of millions over that time. They Soviets were going to collapse under its own weight sooner or later. So with that in mind, you have people in Russia today that are not only fully aware of the horrors of of Soviet times, but are also survivors of the collapse and devastation of the 1990s as well. The people of Russia are fully aware of the savagery of communism and have no desire to return to those days.

Lastly, I believe that Putin, just like Donald Trump, was a wild card that "The Powers That Be" (for lack of a better term) did not account for. The assumption was that Yeltsin was going to pass on his power to some controllable puppet in Putin, and that the rape and looting of Russia would continue as before. But Putin ended up fighting the oligarchs and going out to protect Russian assets, resources and sovereignty. Putin, just like Trump, is a nationalist at heart. That is spun here at home as Putin wanting to rebuild the former glory and build a new Soviet Union.

So that is where we are at now. Our presence in Europe has nothing to do with "protecting" NATO countries. It is about being able to provoking Russia and limiting Russia's trade and commerce with Europe so that Russia could starve even more. That is why we have the sanctions. That is why we are pushing to stage military assets in The Baltics, Poland and Ukraine. Ukraine was key for two reasons. Not only do Russia's major gas pipelines to Europe pass through Ukraine, but also Russia's only warm water port in Crimea. So now you corner Russia military on land by expanding NATO into former Warsaw Pact nations, but you also threaten their ability to project naval power and you cut off their main means of financing their economy by controlling Ukrainian gas pipelines.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Oh boy....US forces visit Iceland, they "haven't gone back. They arent the islands defense force anymore. There was a rescue squadron (which I was part of) and and continuous rotation of F-15s that were there when it was an actual US base. Thats gone. The long range radars? All gone. Now its just a fueling stop for the rotater coming back from over seas. For some reason I thought you were in the service but that can't be right with your poor knowledge of the military.

Cudos to sticking with your anti-Trumpism no matter what. Its weird seeing you libs become "war hawks" now. haha

I thought he was in the military also.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yes you are pro Russian expansion. You can also be against our global posturing methods the two issues aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact they are supportive. Your stance rings clear in the Crimea fiasco thread. And the Venezuela thread. And any Russian satellite/puppet thread.

But in this case why feign otherwise. Just sit back and grin because if Russia actually does gain influence over Germany...View attachment 285397

I have been very clear and consistent with our foreign policy. We have far bigger concerns here at home than to be wasting our blood and treasure all across the globe. Western Europe needs to start defending itself. They have the resources and the means to do so. Same goes for Japan and South Korea in the Far East. We've spent 75+ years with military assets in Asia and spent 100 years protecting Europe. These countries are on their feet now. They need to do some heavy lifting, defend themselves and pick up the expense.

 

[NorthDallas40]

We should be proud of playing a part in crushing The Soviets and communism in Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, instead of us declaring victory and gradually pulling out of Europe, we still wanted to justify a need for having NATO and troops in the region. Along with that, some of the same interests that are today ripping apart this country right now had their hands in Russia looting and picking off their assets... while millions in Russia died in the 1990s during the Soviet collapse and corrupt reign of Yeltsin. All of this is discussed by William Engdahl in his book "Manifest Destiny", in particular in the chapter called "The Rape of Russia".

The Rape of Russia (Saker blog exclusive interview) | The Vineyard of the Saker



Let me go back to my comment earlier where I said "playing a part in crushing The Soviets". Along with our pressure on the Soviets, you also had the USSR simply coming apart from within. They had suffered under 70+ years of tyranny and the loss of millions over that time. They Soviets were going to collapse under its own weight sooner or later. So with that in mind, you have people in Russia today that are not only fully aware of the horrors of of Soviet times, but are also survivors of the collapse and devastation of the 1990s as well. The people of Russia are fully aware of the savagery of communism and have no desire to return to those days.

Lastly, I believe that Putin, just like Donald Trump, was a wild card that "The Powers That Be" (for lack of a better term) did not account for. The assumption was that Yeltsin was going to pass on his power to some controllable puppet in Putin, and that the rape and looting of Russia would continue as before. But Putin ended up fighting the oligarchs and going out to protect Russian assets, resources and sovereignty. Putin, just like Trump, is a nationalist at heart. That is spun here at home as Putin wanting to rebuild the former glory and build a new Soviet Union.

So that is where we are at now. Our presence in Europe has nothing to do with "protecting" NATO countries. It is about being able to provoking Russia and limiting Russia's trade and commerce with Europe so that Russia could starve even more. That is why we have the sanctions. That is why we are pushing to stage military assets in The Baltics, Poland and Ukraine. Ukraine was key for two reasons. Not only do Russia's major gas pipelines to Europe pass through Ukraine, but also Russia's only warm water port in Crimea. So now you corner Russia military on land by expanding NATO into former Warsaw Pact nations, but you also threaten their ability to project naval power and you cut off their main means of financing their economy by controlling Ukrainian gas pipelines.

Ras many of us myself included agree that the US needs to end this ridiculous continual costly power projection and don’t disagree with you. However we also call a spade a spade and the armed aggression in Crimea was unlawful and should be condemned. Instead you actively defend the action. And you do so at every step of Russian aggression.

Yes you are pro Russian expansion.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I have been very clear and consistent with our foreign policy. We have far bigger concerns here at home than to be wasting our blood and treasure all across the globe. Western Europe needs to start defending itself. They have the resources and the means to do so. Same goes for Japan and South Korea in the Far East. We've spent 75+ years with military assets in Asia and spent 100 years protecting Europe. These countries are on their feet now. They need to do some heavy lifting, defend themselves and pick up the expense.

I don’t disagree.

However that doesn’t require defense of Russian expansion to state they need to own their own defense. Which you do every damn time.

 

[C-south]

That’s one brigade from the 82nd Airborne. You have to move mechanized and armored brigades by sealift not airlift (a conversation about the deterioration of our sealift capabilities should be saved for another day.)

The Russians proved that they can camouflage movements of their large formations from satellite intelligence. They moved an entire Motorized Corps to the Ukrainian border Without anyone noticing until it was too late.

Ft Stewart is a mechanized rapid deployment division.

 

[YankeeVol]

Oh boy....US forces visit Iceland, they "haven't gone back. They arent the islands defense force anymore. There was a rescue squadron (which I was part of) and and continuous rotation of F-15s that were there when it was an actual US base. Thats gone. The long range radars? All gone. Now its just a fueling stop for the rotater coming back from over seas. For some reason I thought you were in the service but that can't be right with your poor knowledge of the military.

Cudos to sticking with your anti-Trumpism no matter what. Its weird seeing you libs become "war hawks" now. haha

Just because someone is in the service doesn't mean they are knowledgeable about it. You should know.

 

[AirVol]

Oh boy....US forces visit Iceland, they "haven't gone back. They arent the islands defense force anymore. There was a rescue squadron (which I was part of) and and continuous rotation of F-15s that were there when it was an actual US base. Thats gone. The long range radars? All gone. Now its just a fueling stop for the rotater coming back from over seas. For some reason I thought you were in the service but that can't be right with your poor knowledge of the military.

Cudos to sticking with your anti-Trumpism no matter what. Its weird seeing you libs become "war hawks" now. haha

He’s a military expert now for 4 years.
My 31 years I’ve seen lots of downsizing in certain countries but an increase elsewhere. Will these troops comeback stateside? Doubt it, other countries in Africa are increasing troops, also much of Poland and Italy. Several bases in the Middle East are getting more populated with US troops as well.

 

[carlos86]

Ft Stewart is a mechanized rapid deployment division.

When they held the rapid deployment exercise DEFENDER Europe 20 it took the 3rd Infantry Division 2 weeks to deploy it’s 2nd BCT from Georgia. It’s Abrams tanks and Bradley’s had to be sea lifted from port in Savannah and offloaded at Bremerhaven.