Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

#601
#601
therealUT said:
I know this is not directed towards me; however, I would like to say a little something.

I have a problem with anyone who believes that virtues and works are insufficient to please an all-mighty creator.

If you had a boss who did not give you good evaluations, even though your work and work ethic were superb, because you were not a "yes-man" and did what you thought was the right thing to do, without worshiping your boss, how would you feel about your boss?

At least we could forgive a human boss, though, because he is supposed to be flawed and, therefore, his jealousy is not a fatal flaw.

God is not supposed to be flawed. God is supposed to be perfect (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent); yet, every major religious myth displays this figure as vain, jealous, and more concerned with flattery than with righteous actions.

When Baptists' officially change their stance concerning salvation from sola fidelis to good works, I will no longer consider most of them fools.
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Why do you always pick on Baptists?? Why don't you just say Christians in general?? It's like you just want to aim your retorts at a specific sect of Christianity, while the rest get no thought as to what they might do wrong in your eyes. I'm Baptist by where I go to church, and I've experienced nothing, nor heard anything of the sorts you are describing. There isn't a bulletin board in my church that outlines my beliefs, or anyone else's for that matter. Faith is about a walk with God, all the while trying to become perfect (which means mature and wise) along the way. Everyone's walk with God is different, yet we all strive to become better as we walk with Him. I just find it hard to believe that Baptists give Christians such a bad name, in your eyes. Sounds to me like you have a personal axe to grind with one, or had a bad experience.
 
#602
#602
IPorange said:
It's not their message, it's their delivery. It's antagonistic.
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I would argue it is the message, and the hypocrisy behind it. Say what you will about fanatics, but they have the courage of their convictions to believe what is plainly stated.

There is a lot of nuanced beliefs nowadays that simply wasn't there before scientific inquiry and rational thought forced religion to give so much ground. When the Bible says man was created out of dust and divine breath in a garden with a talking snake, that was fact in first century Judea. It was fact that the flood happened exactly the way told in the new testament. The story recounted in Exodus was fact. Ask any intelligent believer now about these stories and you get references to allegory, figurative speech, and historical perspective. All that is happening now is whitewashing of belief so it becomes more socially acceptable within the bounds of what we now consider common sense.

So when there are facets of belief yet to be explained by modern thinking (God, heaven, hell, afterlife), there are some that may get irritated at the hypocrisy of taking some beliefs literal based lack of modern knowledge while professing the rest as absolute truth. I don't care if you think I am going to hell, but when somebody tells me this, they should expect to be mocked. Otherwise, they should know to politely keep their mouths shut on the matter.

JMO.
 
#603
#603
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Why do you always pick on Baptists?? Why don't you just say Christians in general??
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Calvinists and Baptists hold the belief of sola fidelis; not all Christian sects do.

g8terh8ter_eric said:
I'm Baptist by where I go to church, and I've experienced nothing, nor heard anything of the sorts you are describing.
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I find it hard to believe that you go to a Baptist Church and have heard neither the preacher nor anyone in the congregation state that one must be "saved" by Jesus to go Heaven.

g8terh8ter_eric said:
There isn't a bulletin board in my church that outlines my beliefs, or anyone else's for that matter. Faith is about a walk with God, all the while trying to become perfect (which means mature and wise) along the way. Everyone's walk with God is different, yet we all strive to become better as we walk with Him. I just find it hard to believe that Baptists give Christians such a bad name, in your eyes. Sounds to me like you have a personal axe to grind with one, or had a bad experience.
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Do you believe that non-Christians go to Heaven?
 
#604
#604
rjd970 said:
There is a lot of nuanced beliefs nowadays that simply wasn't there before scientific inquiry and rational thought forced religion to give so much ground. When the Bible says man was created out of dust and divine breath in a garden with a talking snake, that was fact in first century Judea. It was fact that the flood happened exactly the way told in the new testament. The story recounted in Exodus was fact. Ask any intelligent believer now about these stories and you get references to allegory, figurative speech, and historical perspective. All that is happening now is whitewashing of belief so it becomes more socially acceptable within the bounds of what we now consider common sense.
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Not so. There are two competing Creation stories in Genesis; had they professed a belief that it was historical fact, they would have had to choose one or the other. Instead, the Hebrews and Christians kept both.

Greek and Roman Gentiles would not have been converted had they had to give up the teachings of Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato concerning creation and natural law.

Augustine wrote in the Fifth Century that the Creation stories are allegories. Aquinas affirmed that in the Thirteenth Century and included his opinion that all lifeforms spawned from single-celled, small, formless matter.
 
#605
#605
therealUT said:
1. Calvinists and Baptists hold the belief of sola fidelis; not all Christian sects do.



2. I find it hard to believe that you go to a Baptist Church and have heard neither the preacher nor anyone in the congregation state that one must be "saved" by Jesus to go Heaven.



3. Do you believe that non-Christians go to Heaven?
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1. You seem to be well versed in certain sects of Christianity. Is this through your personal experiences, or research?? Also, you seem to think that there is just one sect of Baptists, and there isn't. There are MANY divisions of Baptists in the world.

2. The only way to the Father, is through the Son. That's pretty simple.

3. My God is the only one who has sacrificed his only Son, to redeem man. Seems like someone I would most definitely want to follow. So, yes, I do believe that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and scream that your going to hell. Everyone is presented with choices in this world, and 99.9% of the time, we have no clue as the consequences till much later in life. So, I made a decision to follow the plan outlined for us by Jesus' death, and the teachings of him.
 
#606
#606
therealUT said:
Not so. There are two competing Creation stories in Genesis; had they professed a belief that it was historical fact, they would have had to choose one or the other. Instead, the Hebrews and Christians kept both.

Greek and Roman Gentiles would not have been converted had they had to give up the teachings of Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato concerning creation and natural law.

Augustine wrote in the Fifth Century that the Creation stories are allegories. Aquinas affirmed that in the Thirteenth Century and included his opinion that all lifeforms spawned from single-celled, small, formless matter.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. What happened in the 5th and 13th centuries is irrelevant. These were first century writings. There could have be 100 different stories, each one considered fact by the author at the time. These stories are representations about the universe and how the world works. Whether you admit it or not, there are tacit claims about physics and cosmology being made, and they are nonsense. Coming from a time where the wheelbarrow would have been cutting edge technology, these are the type of stories that made the most sense to them. There was no attempt at allegory or figurative speech. To think there was gives them way too much credit.

I guess now you are going to claim Aquinas, in all his anti-semitc and heretic burning glory provided us with the first precursor to Darwin's theory of evolution? Please. I guess his beliefs toward the proper punishment for Jews and Heretics weren't meant to be taken literally, even though he did? Again, the only constant in the history of religion is a steady whitewashing of belief in order to conform to social norms and evolving common sense.

So again, forgive some of us for laughing at pithy opinions about where we are headed after we die.
 
#607
#607
g8terh8ter_eric said:
1. You seem to be well versed in certain sects of Christianity. Is this through your personal experiences, or research?? Also, you seem to think that there is just one sect of Baptists, and there isn't. There are MANY divisions of Baptists in the world.

2. The only way to the Father, is through the Son. That's pretty simple.

3. My God is the only one who has sacrificed his only Son, to redeem man. Seems like someone I would most definitely want to follow. So, yes, I do believe that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and scream that your going to hell. Everyone is presented with choices in this world, and 99.9% of the time, we have no clue as the consequences till much later in life. So, I made a decision to follow the plan outlined for us by Jesus' death, and the teachings of him.
Click to expand...

Due to the circumstances surrounding their birth (which, if I am correct in assuming, in your opinion would be God's decision), over one billion people in this world will never hear the name Jesus (roughly 18-20% of the population). As far as percentages go, this is a much greater percentage than in centuries past (those living in the Americas never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus until the 16th Century (okay, 1492...the late 15th Century).

In your view, and according to your theological beliefs, all these persons will be barred from Heaven (presumably to burn in hell), regardless of how virtuously they lived their lives.

Following the logic of this thread, God, in his decisions surrounding their birth, preeminently sentenced these people to eternal damnation.

That is the logical conclusion of your beliefs and it is utterly foolish.
 
#608
#608
rjd970 said:
Nonsense. What happened in the 5th and 13th centuries is irrelevant. These were first century writings. There could have be 100 different stories, each one considered fact by the author at the time.
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Try 500 BCE.

Take a moment to read the first two chapters of Genesis. No way someone compiles those two stories, which state much different "facts" and timelines, believes that they are both fact. The capacity for logical thinking did not into the world during the Enlightenment. It was around for a long time. The Septuagint was finally written down during the Babylonian Captivity, by literate and learned Chroniclers. Those two stories would not have been included, had they believed they were factually true; at least one of them would have been dropped.

rjd970 said:
These stories are representations about the universe and how the world works. Whether you admit it or not, there are tacit claims about physics and cosmology being made, and they are nonsense. Coming from a time where the wheelbarrow would have been cutting edge technology, these are the type of stories that made the most sense to them. There was no attempt at allegory or figurative speech. To think there was gives them way too much credit.
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To think they were not allegory, is ridiculous. Again, capacity for logical thought and reason was around.

rjd970 said:
I guess now you are going to claim Aquinas, in all his anti-semitc and heretic burning glory provided us with the first precursor to Darwin's theory of evolution? Please. I guess his beliefs toward the proper punishment for Jews and Heretics weren't meant to be taken literally, even though he did? Again, the only constant in the history of religion is a steady whitewashing of belief in order to conform to social norms and evolving common sense.
Click to expand...

Because Aquinas was advocated for the execution of heretics, he could not have stated that he believed all life came from single-celled organisms?
 
#609
#609
therealUT said:
Due to the circumstances surrounding their birth (which, if I am correct in assuming, in your opinion would be God's decision), over one billion people in this world will never hear the name Jesus (roughly 18-20% of the population). As far as percentages go, this is a much greater percentage than in centuries past (those living in the Americas never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus until the 16th Century (okay, 1492...the late 15th Century).

In your view, and according to your theological beliefs, all these persons will be barred from Heaven (presumably to burn in hell), regardless of how virtuously they lived their lives.

Following the logic of this thread, God, in his decisions surrounding their birth, preeminently sentenced these people to eternal damnation.

That is the logical conclusion of your beliefs and it is utterly foolish.
Click to expand...

Well, Jesus did go preach to those spirits that were in Sheol/Hades, before he ascended to Heaven. Those who believed in him, were taken with him when he ascended into Heaven. This is in Ephesians 4:8-10, and 1 Peter 3:18-20. So, they got their chance as well.
 
#610
#610
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Well, Jesus did go preach to those spirits that were in Sheol/Hades, before he ascended to Heaven. Those who believed in him, were taken with him when he ascended into Heaven. This is in Ephesians 4:8-10, and 1 Peter 3:18-20. So, they got their chance as well.
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This in no way accounts for the billions of people who lived and died between 33 CE and now.
 
#611
#611
therealUT said:
Due to the circumstances surrounding their birth (which, if I am correct in assuming, in your opinion would be God's decision), over one billion people in this world will never hear the name Jesus (roughly 18-20% of the population). As far as percentages go, this is a much greater percentage than in centuries past (those living in the Americas never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus until the 16th Century (okay, 1492...the late 15th Century).

In your view, and according to your theological beliefs, all these persons will be barred from Heaven (presumably to burn in hell), regardless of how virtuously they lived their lives.

Following the logic of this thread, God, in his decisions surrounding their birth, preeminently sentenced these people to eternal damnation.

That is the logical conclusion of your beliefs and it is utterly foolish.
Click to expand...

One argument that I always hear for this is "that is why we have missionaries" or "it is our job to teach them," if that is truth, I want no part of a deity who feels that my eternal fate should be in the hands of some other man. Further, if that line of thinking doesn't fly directly into the face of "free will," I don't know what does.
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#613
#613
therealUT said:
This in no way accounts for the billions of people who lived and died between 33 CE and now.
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I think God can choose to do with those people as he sees fit. If they didn't hear about Jesus, then it's pretty hard to sit here and say that he's going to damn them to eternal hell because of that. If your never presented with the choice, it's hard to choose. I'll differ to God doing the right thing, which he always has, on this one.
 
#614
#614
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I think God can choose to do with those people as he sees fit. If they didn't hear about Jesus, then it's pretty hard to sit here and say that he's going to damn them to eternal hell because of that. If your never presented with the choice, it's hard to choose. I'll differ to God doing the right thing, which he always has, on this one.
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Please, enlighten me as to how God "always" makes the "right thing" without resorting to the mysterious ways nonsense
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#615
#615
emainvol said:
Please, enlighten me as to how God "always" makes the "right thing" without resorting to the mysterious ways nonsense
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Because I accept the fact that what God does is good. I try and keep it as simple as possible, and leave the big theological debates to the atheists.
 
#616
#616
rjd970 said:
I would argue it is the message, and the hypocrisy behind it. Say what you will about fanatics, but they have the courage of their convictions to believe what is plainly stated.

There is a lot of nuanced beliefs nowadays that simply wasn't there before scientific inquiry and rational thought forced religion to give so much ground. When the Bible says man was created out of dust and divine breath in a garden with a talking snake, that was fact in first century Judea. It was fact that the flood happened exactly the way told in the new testament. The story recounted in Exodus was fact. Ask any intelligent believer now about these stories and you get references to allegory, figurative speech, and historical perspective. All that is happening now is whitewashing of belief so it becomes more socially acceptable within the bounds of what we now consider common sense.

So when there are facets of belief yet to be explained by modern thinking (God, heaven, hell, afterlife), there are some that may get irritated at the hypocrisy of taking some beliefs literal based lack of modern knowledge while professing the rest as absolute truth. I don't care if you think I am going to hell, but when somebody tells me this, they should expect to be mocked. Otherwise, they should know to politely keep their mouths shut on the matter.

JMO.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree about the creation bit. Western Christianity the last 1000 years has taken it far more literally than ancient peoples ever took those stories in their time.
 
#617
#617
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I think God can choose to do with those people as he sees fit. If they didn't hear about Jesus, then it's pretty hard to sit here and say that he's going to damn them to eternal hell because of that. If your never presented with the choice, it's hard to choose. I'll differ to God doing the right thing, which he always has, on this one.
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So, it is not so simple, then?

Isn't it also Jesus who states that blaspheming against him (Jesus) is forgivable, yet blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (the conscience) is not?

Jesus also says, while he is on the cross, "forgive them Father, they know not what they do," which seems to forgive persons for not believing in him, even when they come in contact with him (physical contact, not just illusory hearsay).
 
#619
#619
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Because I accept the fact that what God does is good. I try and keep it as simple as possible, and leave the big theological debates to the atheists.
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Sending people to hell is not good. The argument could be made that it is, in fact, evil.
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#621
#621
therealUT said:
So, it is not so simple, then?

Isn't it also Jesus who states that blaspheming against him (Jesus) is forgivable, yet blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (the conscience) is not?

Jesus also says, while he is on the cross, "forgive them Father, they know not what they do," which seems to forgive persons for not believing in him, even when they come in contact with him (physical contact, not just illusory hearsay).
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You have it backwards, and if you can't forgive other people for what they do, how can God forgive you?? It didn't have much, if anything, to do with belief in him, it had to do with just forgiveness of others. Forgive those who trespass against you.
 
#623
#623
therealUT said:
To think they were not allegory, is ridiculous. Again, capacity for logical thought and reason was around.
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Amazing that we have people today, in the age of reason and intellectual thought...with more scientific evidence capable to them then any of the ancients could have dreamed of, that still believe in the literal story behind Genesis. You're right, it is ridiculous to assume a bunch of bronze age, animal sacrificing simpletons could have believed the same thing.


therealUT said:
Because Aquinas was advocated for the execution of heretics, he could not have stated that he believed all life came from single-celled organisms?
Click to expand...

Because Aquinas advocated for the execution of heretics, it tells us that even the beliefs of intellectual thinkers, when not bound by social norms and intelligent thought, relied on holy scripture for guidance on all other matters. Same today, nobody knows what happens after we die, so we are told some of us will go to a magical place called heaven, and some will go to an eternity of materialistic suffering called hell. Same with Aquinas in his time, it is nothing more than short-sighted stupidity because there happens to be nothing to fall back on or constrain behavior at the time.

The whole idea of claiming to know what happens after we die is arrogance without substance.
 
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