Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

#726
#726
fl0at said:
A test of devotion, alleigience, and/or responsiveness to authority. Acceptance as master is also on the list.
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This argument, IMO, does not work as it contradicts the actual language and reason given in the Bible. God's messenger specifically says, "I now know".
 
#727
#727
fl0at said:
For those like Beecher, who are good ol' boys, and see beauty in nature, his route may be more spiritual and faith based.


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I will take that as a compliment.

From where I stand, faith is the requirement. I accept that and move on. And for this reason, I do not have the ability to force or make anyone conform to this. If I could, it would be strictly a "works" based salvation which I do not believe. Rather, I believe that you will produce the works from your faith. Some stances I have will ruffle feathers none the less, but I am not called to be mute on the subject. I also accept this and move on. In the end it boils down to a decision you make for yourself.

"Good ole' boy",
 
#728
#728
BeecherVol said:
I will take that as a compliment.

From where I stand, faith is the requirement. I accept that and move on. And for this reason, I do not have the ability to force or make anyone conform to this. If I could, it would be strictly a "works" based salvation which I do not believe. Rather, I believe that you will produce the works from your faith. Some stances I have will ruffle feathers none the less, but I am not called to be mute on the subject. I also accept this and move on. In the end it boils down to a decision you make for yourself.

"Good ole' boy",
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What do you think about Paul's statements in his Letter to the Romans concerning the circumcised and the uncircumcised?
 
#730
#730
therealUT said:
This argument, IMO, does not work as it contradicts the actual language and reason given in the Bible. God's messenger specifically says, "I now know".
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Yes, no. I haven't read it. Taking that statement as knowledge on your part passed down to me, I would need context and explanation as to what was the event and who did the saying.

But, if we take it that it was from god to man, then the explanation could be that god now knows that his message was received and obeyed. In essence, he said: "Roger, Sky Six out."

If Abraham is the one professing the new knowledge, then he is saying that he now knows any number of things: that there is a higher power, and he has given his life over to it, through obedience, and that said higher power may be merciful.
 
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#732
#732
therealUT said:
What do you think about Paul's statements in his Letter to the Romans concerning the circumcised and the uncircumcised?
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Personally. It seemed like some of the Jews could not take the "law" and the new covenant through Christ and put them together. Jesus ran into this issue just the same as Paul did. Im sure some of the Jews thought Paul to be a blasphemer against the law no different than some did with Christ.

In some ways that is still evident today with some Jews and Gentiles. They want to hold religious acts or traditions above Christ and not in conjunction with.
 
#734
#734
fl0at said:
Yes, no. I haven't read it. Taking that statement as knowledge on your part passed down to me, I would need context and explanation as to what was the event and who did the saying.
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From Genesis 22
1
Some time after these events, God put Abraham to the test. He called to him, "Abraham!" "Ready!" he replied.
2
Then God said: "Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you."
3
Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him his son Isaac, and two of his servants as well, and with the wood that he had cut for the holocaust, set out for the place of which God had told him.
4
On the third day Abraham got sight of the place from afar.
5
Then he said to his servants: "Both of you stay here with the donkey, while the boy and I go on over yonder. We will worship and then come back to you."
6
Thereupon Abraham took the wood for the holocaust and laid it on his son Isaac's shoulders, while he himself carried the fire and the knife.
7
As the two walked on together, Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. "Father!" he said. "Yes, son," he replied. Isaac continued, "Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the sheep for the holocaust?"
8
"Son," Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the sheep for the holocaust." Then the two continued going forward.
9
When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar.
10
Then he reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.
11
But the LORD'S messenger called to him from heaven, "Abraham, Abraham!" "Yes, Lord," he answered.
12
"Do not lay your hand on the boy," said the messenger. "Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son."
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#735
#735
BeecherVol said:
Personally. It seemed like some of the Jews could not take the "law" and the new covenant through Christ and put them together. Jesus ran into this issue just the same as Paul did. Im sure some of the Jews thought Paul to be a blasphemer against the law no different than some did with Christ.

In some ways that is still evident today with some Jews and Gentiles. They want to hold religious acts or traditions above Christ and not in conjunction with.
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I would interpret that passage to mean that one does not have to believe in Christ for salvation; what is more important is that one obeys their conscience.
 
#737
#737
fl0at said:
Taking just this portion: "I know now how devoted you are to God" seems to fit in with my statement that it was a test of devotion.
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Correct. It was; however, it was not a test so that Abraham would know that Abraham was devoted to God. It was a test so that God (presumably all-knowing) would know that Abraham was devoted.

To my mind, it does not make sense.
 
#738
#738
fl0at said:
Air in motion? I accept its existence. I accept that air can be measured, tested and explained.

I accept that the same can be said for air in motion, a la wind.

If you are attempting to equate this to god, I will only ask how we can measure and test either god, or the substances that compose said righteous diety.Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Everything that exist cannot be measured.

Can you measure Darkness ?
 
#740
#740
therealUT said:
Correct. It was; however, it was not a test so that Abraham would know that Abraham was devoted to God. It was a test so that God (presumably all-knowing) would know that Abraham was devoted.

To my mind, it does not make sense.
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I actually think it is a bit of both. If you do not see activity or receive confirmation, how do you know your order was received?

It was equally a test for Abraham's self-evidence of devotion, otherwise he would have said: "God does not exist. I am not devoted. I will not follow through."

In essence, a new synapse in the brain was formed that allowed for authority greater than oneself.
 
#741
#741
What about the tides? They come in and come out. You can't explain that!

boats-float.jpeg
 
#742
#742
IPorange said:
What about the tides? They come in and come out. You can't explain that!
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I take it you too find the traditional "you can't see this, so why do you believe it" examples to be amusing as well?

So far we have seen wind and darkness. I'm wondering what is next.
 
#743
#743
fl0at said:
I actually think it is a bit of both. If you do not see activity or receive confirmation, how do you know your order was received?
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If you are omniscient, you would know everything, to include thoughts, sentiments, etc. No reason would be needed and/or suffice to test devotion; devotion would be known.
 
#744
#744
God has the power to be all knowing but doesn't feel the need to use it all the time. I.e. you may be able to bench 300 lbs but you don't walk around all day lifting things.

We are free moral agents so he has confidence in a person but he allows them to make decisions to express how they feel. I.e. you may have confidence and know that your child would make a right decision but its nice to see them actually make it.
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#745
#745
therealUT said:
I would interpret that passage to mean that one does not have to believe in Christ for salvation; what is more important is that one obeys their conscience.
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I have heard several interpretations of that Chapter most having small variances. This would be a first.

Considering that in Chapter 3 of Romans he specifically states that righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to the Jew and Gentile alike, I would have a hard time leaving Christ out and inserting conscience.
 
#746
#746
tri_vol said:
God has the power to be all knowing but doesn't feel the need to use it all the time. I.e. you may be able to bench 300 lbs but you don't walk around all day lifting things.

We are free moral agents so he has confidence in a person but he allows them to make decisions to express how they feel. I.e. you may have confidence and know that your child would make a right decision but its nice to see them actually make it.
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This is a silly post and one of the more terrible defenses of Judeo-Christian theology I've seen in a long time.*

*actually, the wind, darkness, and Horace statements are pretty terrible as well.
 
#747
#747
therealUT said:
If you are omniscient, you would know everything, to include thoughts, sentiments, etc. No reason would be needed and/or suffice to test devotion; devotion would be known.
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Very valid point. But Abraham didn't know how he would react to the test. But after experience, he knew where he stood as far as his devotion.

God saying "he now knows" is not to say he did not know the outcome from the start, but to provide to Abraham confirmation that the test was indeed passed.
 
#748
#748
BeecherVol said:
I have heard several interpretations of that Chapter most having small variances. This would be a first.

Considering that in Chapter 3 of Romans he specifically states that righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to the Jew and Gentile alike, I would have a hard time leaving Christ out and inserting conscience.
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Yet, he specifically states:

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them.
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I would interpret that to mean that one who acts justly, according to their conscience, will be judged favorably by God; whether or not they have ever heard the law. I would imagine that sentiment would expand to those who obey "Christian morals" without ever having heard of Christ, therefore they would presumably have no faith in Christ.
 
#749
#749
fl0at said:
Very valid point. But Abraham didn't know how he would react to the test. But after experience, he knew where he stood as far as his devotion.

God saying "he now knows" is not to say he did not know the outcome from the start, but to provide to Abraham confirmation that the test was indeed passed.
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I have to disagree; I think that is exactly what those words mean.
 
#750
#750
therealUT said:
As darkness is simply the absence of light and light can be measured, yes.
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Yes light can be measured. I was asking about darkness.


Do you accept the existence of darkness?


Your argument was that you accept air in motion because it can be measured, tested and explained.

Then you go on to say that " If you are attempting to equate this to god, I will only ask how we can measure and test either god, or the substances that compose said righteous diety"


My question to you is how can we measure and test darkness, or the substances that composes darkness?
 
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