Making a Murderer (w/ Spoilers)

#276
#276
bamawriter said:
It's like the OJ Simpson leather glove. You can only have him try it on once. If you don't get the result you want, the bell can't be unrung.
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ok, so where was the fingerprints on the car? there wasn't any. none, zero , zilch. tell me how that happened.

if he's smarter than we think he is. he removes the blood and all dna. and if we believe he's as dumb as they say he is. he leaves fingerprints everywhere.
 
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#277
#277
loggervol said:
ok, so where was the fingerprints on the car? there wasn't any. none, zero , zilch. tell me how that happened.

if he's smarter than we think he is. he removes the blood and all dna. and if we believe he's as dumb as they say he is. he leaves fingerprints everywhere.
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My theory, with no evidence to back it up, was he wore gloves. The glove ripped when Avery got the nasty gash on his finger. That allowed for blood, but no prints.
 
#278
#278
bamawriter said:
Sorry, but I disagree. "Just because he didn't find it doesn't mean it wasn't there" is the absolute worst attempt at discrediting a test ever. If their expert had run the test and found it, then great, you can paint the FBI analyst as having missed it. Otherwise, you're simply saying it might have been a false negative. You haven't even strongly suggested it was a false negative, you're just shrugging your shoulders and saying "hey, maybe...".
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There is a real possibility it was a false negative. Especially when you consider that the lab tested a 2 microliter sample direct from the tube and it did not test positive for EDTA. A sample that absolutely had EDTA came up as not having EDTA during their test. So the blood sample in the car not testing positive for EDTA is not the damming piece of evidence it is made out to be by the prosecution. Here's a fact: a sealed vial of Steven Avery's blood in an evidence locker had been tampered with and blood extracted via a syringe. That fact alone gives me reasonable doubt before we even get to the magical manifesting key and bullet tropes. Avery may be guilty, but no way in hell is he guilty beyond doubt.
 
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#279
#279
Sandvol said:
If you read a lot about cases like this it is very typical. A lot of criminals seem to have ADD. They will clean up one area really well and leave evidence in another place inexplicably. Just like the Knox case. If you're interested recommend joining the web site "websleuth.com". See some of their discussions about this and other cases. There are a lot of competing ideas but it is easy to recognize the ones which make sense.
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In the Amanda Knox case they managed to wipe their DNA off and still leave Kercher's and Guede's...real masterful job. :thumbsup:
 
#280
#280
Sandvol said:
This is getting tiring and not really worth my time.
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You overvalue your time. And the substance of your arguments. Basically if the prosecution prints out a copy of their case , you'll rubber stamp it and declare it infallible. I'd be tired too if I let my brain cells get fat and lazy. :boredom:
 
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#281
#281
SamRebel35 said:
There is a real possibility it was a false negative. Especially when you consider that the lab tested a 2 microliter sample direct from the tube and it did not test positive for EDTA. A sample that absolutely had EDTA came up as not having EDTA during their test. So the blood sample in the car not testing positive for EDTA is not the damming piece of evidence it is made out to be by the prosecution. Here's a fact: a sealed vial of Steven Avery's blood in an evidence locker had been tampered with and blood extracted via a syringe. That fact alone gives me reasonable doubt before we even get to the magical manifesting key and bullet tropes. Avery may be guilty, but no way in hell is he guilty beyond doubt.
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It's not a fact that the original vial was tampered with.... It was made to look that way in the documentary but original transcripts show that there is strong evidence that it was never messed with.
I have trouble watching the documentary bc it has the feel of a Michael Moore documentary.... The guys that made this documentary are trying to lead us to whatever conclusion they want us to believe.... The video is edited to make Avery seem like a sympathetic victim and the evidence is shown in a way to make whoever is watching to doubt him being guilty.
 
#282
#282
volbeast33 said:
It's not a fact that the original vial was tampered with.... It was made to look that way in the documentary but original transcripts show that there is strong evidence that it was never messed with.
I have trouble watching the documentary bc it has the feel of a Michael Moore documentary.... The guys that made this documentary are trying to lead us to whatever conclusion they want us to believe.... The video is edited to make Avery seem like a sympathetic victim and the evidence is shown in a way to make whoever is watching to doubt him being guilty.
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It is a documentary, not a news cast. Of course the producers have an angle. Did you ever see Blackfish? It was compelling, but it wasn't exactly a balanced view of the issues. Nevertheless, it raised a lot of legitimate questions we need to be asking ourselves, as does making a murderer. That doesn't mean they can change the facts as they would like. And I think most people understand that when they watch.

The vial was absolutely tampered with. The seal on the box was broken. Apparently there is some question as to whether blood was extracted.

Personally, I think Avery is a certified piece of sh!t. He burned a cat alive with gasoline. He has been involved in domestic violence. He ran his cousin off the road and pointed a gun at her. By the way, he did time for that. But one thing that I haven't been convinced of was the he 100% without doubt killed TH. Hey isn't on trial for being a degenerate piece of trash. He is on trial for a murder that was investigated with one suspect in mind from start to finish. Investigated by people in a department that were not supposed to be there due to a conflict of interest. Don't blame doubters for their doubt. Blame the incompetent/corrupt government employees for giving citizens reason to doubt.
 
#283
#283
News casts have angles too; they are just more subtle about it most of the time
 
#284
#284
Here's a theory that explains Colborn's call. It's just a theory, but I like it.

Genius ?Making A Murderer? Theory Explains SO Many Loose Ends, Namely Colborn?s 911 Call About Teresa?s Car ? BroBible

“The police didn’t kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property… freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he “calls” in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to “call” in… instead of “radio” in… the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn’t in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the “field’ on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4… 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm….

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn’s calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach’s car and then report to him immediately.

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don’t realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach’s car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych’s idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery’s burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach’s cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach’s cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find… but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach’s cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery’s burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach’s cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ….and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn’t aware of the other’s involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach’s RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated… everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn’t fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn’t conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right… Imagine Scott Tadych’s confused and utter relief when Steve Avery’s blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery’s bedroom….. he must have been like…. WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach’s murder…. “THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN” ….. We will see Scott, we will see…………………”

This is probably the most credible theory I have come across so far. Notice how the events here not only make logical sense, but they also line up with how many of the parties involved behaved during the documentary i.e how Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas seemed like they knew more about what happened than they were leading on. As well as Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey’s bizarre hostility towards Steven Avery.
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#286
#286
PotS said:
Here's a theory that explains Colborn's call. It's just a theory, but I like it.

Genius ?Making A Murderer? Theory Explains SO Many Loose Ends, Namely Colborn?s 911 Call About Teresa?s Car ? BroBible
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Stoked said:
Wow I agree with this.
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You've just illustrated why productions like Making a Murderer are so problematic for the viewing public. You agree with this theory based on what? There is absolutely no evidence that Bobby Dassey or Scott Tadych ever so much as spoke to Teresa Halbach. There is no evidence that Halbach's brother and ex-boyfriend were ever on that property on the evening in question. No evidence whatsoever, not circumstantial, not eye-witness, certainly not physical. None.

One could say "It's possible." Well sure it's possible. Anything is possible. It's possible that Bigfoot killed her, and there is just as much evidence of that as there is of the posted theory.

Even accepting the fact that Colborn is shady as all-get-out, and that he very well may have been searching for evidence on the Avery property without a warrant, the reason that fingers are pointed at these other four is that the documentary portrays all four in a terrible light. They are made to look shady. They are made to look untrustworthy. There is a clear, unmitigated effort to give the audience the impression that any of them might have had something to do with Halbach's murder. But this negative light isn't based on facts, or even concrete accusations. It's based solely on the producers' desire to point the finger at anyone other than Steven Avery.
 
#288
#288
bamawriter said:
But this negative light isn't based on facts, or even concrete accusations. It's based solely on the producers' desire to point the finger at anyone other than Steven Avery.
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I was with you until this part. Any negative attention that Lenk and Colburn have received is not due to the documentary, it is due to their blatant disregard for procedure and ethics. The hate they get from the public and the scrutiny from the documentary is well deserved.
 
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#289
#289
butchna said:
Makes a lot of sense.
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On a gut feeling level this makes more sense than any theory the prosecution presented against Avery. Bama is right though, no actual evidence points to this theory even being remotely provable. Part of that might be due to the fact that no other suspects were ever investigated and no other suspects were allowed to be brought up in the trial. If, perhaps, the police had followed ethics and proper procedure, their investigation may have carried them close to a theory that looked like this. We'll never know.
 
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#290
#290
SamRebel35 said:
I was with you until this part. Any negative attention that Lenk and Colburn have received is not due to the documentary, it is due to their blatant disregard for procedure and ethics. The hate they get from the public and the scrutiny from the documentary is well deserved.
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Again, I separated Colborn from the other 4 because he definitely did some stuff he shouldn't have. Thus, any accusations against him carry some plausibility. The others were painted in a negative light for no other reason than they believed that Avery was guilty. I was especially bothered by how poorly her brother was portrayed. Would anyone in his shoes act differently?
 
#291
#291
Sandvol said:
So now you're saying someone else killed her and brought her bones to Steve Avery's fire pit? Wouldn't it be more logical to conclude that Steve Avery killed her and burned her remains in the fire pit especially since his DNA and blood were found on the car and the key, evidence that she was in his trailer, that he called and specifically asked for her, that he disguised his call, that he was the last person to see her alive, that the bullet from his gun had her DNA on it, that her car was found on his property? Wouldn't that be a more logical conclusion since there isn't one shred of evidence anyone else could have done this fantastical theory without someone coming forward to add any credibility to it?
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only a simpleton would take the fact that there was a receipt and a magazine in his house as proof that she was physically in his house as well.
 
#292
#292
I like that theory because of how it explains Colborn calling dispatch with a description and plates of the vehicle 2 days before it was found.

I do agree that there's no physical evidence linking Taydch to anything, and that part of the theory is a hypothetical reach.
 
#297
#297
bamawriter said:
It's worth checking out the dude's website. It's linked in the article.
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Worth as in he's a kookie conspiracy theorist or that he may be on to something?

I'm on my way to check it out, just interested in your opinion.
 
#298
#298
PotS said:
Worth as in he's a kookie conspiracy theorist or that he may be on to something?

I'm on my way to check it out, just interested in your opinion.
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Without completely dismissing his theories (and there are a lot), I will lean toward the former.
 
#299
#299
bamawriter said:
Without completely dismissing his theories (and there are a lot), I will lean toward the former.
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I just scrolled through it. There's a lot of stuff there, but it's kinda all over the place. I need his info laid out in a logical order to take him seriously. It's similar to an article written with poor grammar - it's hard to take it seriously.

I do like a good plot twist, though.
 
#300
#300
PotS said:
I just scrolled through it. There's a lot of stuff there, but it's kinda all over the place. I need his info laid out in a logical order to take him seriously. It's similar to an article written with poor grammar - it's hard to take it seriously.

I do like a good plot twist, though.
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It seems like he puts every unsolved, or incorrectly solved, murder in the last 40-45 years on Edwards. Calling that "a stretch" is putting it mildly.
 
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