Malaysia Boeing 777

[Weezer]

I've also heard that American and Iranian ships had been trading some shots in the Gulf at that period in time, intensifying things, but I'm not sure

Tensions in the Gulf were high. We were a year removed from Iraq having killed 37 crewmen aboard the USS Stark with an "accidental" missile strike. The Iran/Iraq War was trying to be brought under control. The USS Vincennes was actually rapidly deployed to the Gulf because of the high tensions. An over-eager captain didn't help matters.

 

[Weezer]

Can I just stop this briefly and ask how a Tomcat is involved here? I'm not questioning either side, but why the hell would we have thought an enemy Tomcat was approaching? Did we sell Tomcats to Iran?

Yes.

 

[Gramps]

Not read back.
Has it been determined who did this? Earlier today I hear it was a pro Russian group.

 

[hog88]

Soldiers get held accountable, not the entire U.S. Govt. And sometimes things get swept under the rug. Not every incident comes to light.

I still don't see how a soldier's mistake justifies us bankrolling a war. Most posters wanting to arm the Ukrainians are the same ones against welfare. So we want to give U.S. dollars to another country but not other American citizens? (FTR, I'm for major welfare reform.) Why start handing out cash and weapons to foreign countries when we can use that money here?

Uh, I don't want to arm or provide military support to Ukraine. I want their fellow Europeans to step up and help them. However, we all know they are not going to do that. Why? Most of Europe gets their NG from Russia!

We could if we wanted to, replace that but we have a POTUS and government that will not step up to the plate.

 

[Weezer]

Can I just stop this briefly and ask how a Tomcat is involved here? I'm not questioning either side, but why the hell would we have thought an enemy Tomcat was approaching? Did we sell Tomcats to Iran?

It was before the revolution that overthrew the Shah, but yes, we did export tomcats to Iran.

 

[volprof]

Yes.

Seriously? I thought the Tomcat was a Navy bird. We really sold them to Iran? I know we were double-dipping in those days, between Iraq and Iran (and Oliver North who thinks he's somehow qualified now to criticize all things American politics), but jeez!

 

[volprof]

It was before the revolution that overthrew the Shah, but yes, we did export tomcats to Iran.

Well, why didn't you say so earlier, dammit!
I was only 3 in '88, so I don't know much about anything, to quote Forrest Gump.

 

[Grand Vol]

The Vincennes tried to communicate on frequencies the airliner could not receive.

Oh?

https://web.archive.org/web/20060527221409/http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~nrotc/ns302/20note.html

The two ships were broadcasting on military and international air distress frequencies, and during the busy climb-out phase of his flight, Captain Rezaian likely was monitoring the approach control frequency at Bandar Abbas, where he took off seven minutes before, and air traffic control at Tehran Center

And was Iran Air monitoring Guard like it was supposed to have been per ICAO regulations?

Annex 10 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, to which Iran is a party, provides that commercial aircraft "shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHZ in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

They never tried to communicate on standard ATC frequencies.

As they were attempting communications on Guard as noted above, which the Iranians were required to monitor, why should the Navy have played guessing games on which frequency to use?

The airliner was in an established airway. Instrumentation from the Vincennes retrieved after the incident clearly showed the airliner was ascending(standard for an airliner) and not descending(standard for a Tomcat on an attack run). The U.S. eventually agreed to make reparations, but it was not quick, and they never admitted fault(despite the ship's at the time state-of-the-art instrumentation showing clearly that the airliner had done absolutely nothing to identify it as a threat).

Kind of like how quick the reparations came for the USS Stark? Or the apology came for KAL 007?

So somehow these two situations are similar in some way, shape or form?

 

[Grand Vol]

I've also heard that American and Iranian ships had been trading some shots in the Gulf at that period in time, intensifying things, but I'm not sure

They were for the better part of the morning it happened.

 

[Grand Vol]

Seriously? I thought the Tomcat was a Navy bird. We really sold them to Iran? I know we were double-dipping in those days, between Iraq and Iran (and Oliver North who thinks he's somehow qualified now to criticize all things American politics), but jeez!

We sold the F-14 system to Iran prior to the Revolution in 1979. Which was part of the reason the spare parts became so sought after on the international black market. Iran wanted to keep theirs flying, but didn't have the parts to make it go. So they cannibalized what they had to keep a dozen or so in the air.

 

[Weezer]

Uh, I don't want to arm or provide military support to Ukraine. I want their fellow Europeans to step up and help them. However, we all know they are not going to do that. Why? Most of Europe gets their NG from Russia!

We could if we wanted to, replace that but we have a POTUS and government that will not step up to the plate.

And I'm saying if those closest to the problem aren't going to fix it, why should we?

God helps those who help themselves.

If Europe isn't going to grow a set and address the problem themselves, we should stay out of it. Personally, I'm tired of other countries expecting us to police the world, then criticizing us when we do it. Eff 'em all. Let them deal with their own problems, and we'll start dealing with ours. Life would be better if we didn't have U.S. soldiers constantly putting their lives on the line for a bunch of ungrateful bastards. Bring our men and women home and let other countries worry about what they're going to do when the **** hits the fan.

 

[FLVOL69]

We sold the F-14 system to Iran prior to the Revolution in 1979. Which was part of the reason the spare parts became so sought after on the international black market. Iran wanted to keep theirs flying, but didn't have the parts to make it go. So they cannibalized what they had to keep a dozen or so in the air.

Guess they're too stupid to reverse engineer parts.

 

[Grand Vol]

Guess they're too stupid to reverse engineer parts.

IIRC, most of it was electronic type stuff that went out that couldn't be reverse engineered.

Keeping the mechanical systems up you could do that. But that type of fighter relied greatly on computer systems to make it go and do what it was designed to do.

 

[Burhead]

Can't remember if it was the State Department or the intelligence community who said this but apparently we have evidence saying that the Russian separatists had been in Russia some weeks prior to this receiving air defense training.

 

[FLVOL69]

IIRC, most of it was electronic type stuff that went out that couldn't be reverse engineered.

Keeping the mechanical systems up you could do that. But that type of fighter relied greatly on computer systems to make it go and do what it was designed to do.

Makes sense now..

 

[Coug]

Can't remember if it was the State Department or the intelligence community who said this but apparently we have evidence saying that the Russian separatists had been in Russia some weeks prior to this receiving air defense training.

Probably came with a layman's manual strapped to it when it was delivered from Russia to the separatists.

 

[Weezer]

Oh?

https://web.archive.org/web/20060527221409/http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~nrotc/ns302/20note.html



And was Iran Air monitoring Guard like it was supposed to have been per ICAO regulations?





As they were attempting communications on Guard as noted above, which the Iranians were required to monitor, why should the Navy have played guessing games on which frequency to use?



Kind of like how quick the reparations came for the USS Stark? Or the apology came for KAL 007?

So somehow these two situations are similar in some way, shape or form?

The ship's Aegis Combat System recorded that the airliner was ascending, not descending, when the missiles were fired. The same systems show the airliner was correctly "squawking" on the Mode III civilian code only. The navy admitted to this.

The Stark was hit by an Iraqi missile, not an Iranian missile. The Stark was homeported out of Mayport at the time(my dad's last duty station). I lived there when it happenned. I knew someone whose father was among those killed and knew more whose fathers were among the injured.

KAL 007 happenned as the result of a Cold War cluster f***. Many factors were involved there.

Iran Flight 655 happenned in Iranian waters. We were in their waters, we shot down their civilian plane. Clearly we fawked up. If it had happenned in international waters, it still would have been wrong, but you'd have more of a case. We should have apologized. Least we could have done after ending 290 lives.

 

[Weezer]

And GV, having a naval warship at your command is akin to holding a gun. We talk about the right to bear arms, and the personal responsibility that comes with it. When you're commanding a warship in unfriendly waters, you still should have the expectation of using it properly. If the captain of the Vincennes had properly analyzed his data, he'd have known that he wasn't shooting at an enemy tomcat. Aegis had just come out at the time and was state of the art tech. It would have told him everything he wanted to know, but instead he chose to pick a fight. He acted recklessly with a gun that didn't even belong to him. He should have been brought up on charges IMO.

 

[Grand Vol]

Iran Flight 655 happenned in Iranian waters. We were in their waters, we shot down their civilian plane. Clearly we fawked up. If it had happenned in international waters, it still would have been wrong, but you'd have more of a case. We should have apologized. Least we could have done after ending 290 lives.

We were pretty much in an undeclared war at the time in the Persian Gulf. Our ships and their "navy" were trading fire so often it boggles the mind it didn't get worse.

I would never defend what happened with Iran Air 655 as it was a major Charlie Fox. But unlike this situation, the attempt was made to contact the airliner. It was 37 minutes behind schedule. And yes, an overly aggressive Captain took matters into his own hands.

Now should we apologize? Not until we get an apology for the thousands of people killed through terrorist groups around the world that the government of Iran sponsored, funded and equipped. Or when they violated our territorial integrity and held Americans hostage in clear violation of international treaties and conventions. Even during WWII we never stormed the Japanese or German embassies.

So why are we supposed to apologize to Iran for an accident when they have been supporting terrorism that's purposely killed thousands around the world since 1979? Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's a two way street here.

 

[Grand Vol]

And GV, having a naval warship at your command is akin to holding a gun. We talk about the right to bear arms, and the personal responsibility that comes with it. When you're commanding a warship in unfriendly waters, you still should have the expectation of using it properly. If the captain of the Vincennes had properly analyzed his data, he'd have known that he wasn't shooting at an enemy tomcat. Aegis had just come out at the time and was state of the art tech. It would have told him everything he wanted to know, but instead he chose to pick a fight. He acted recklessly with a gun that didn't even belong to him. He should have been brought up on charges IMO.

I'm actually surprised he didn't to be perfectly honest with you. And that question never has been sufficiently answered IMO.

 

[Weezer]

We were pretty much in an undeclared war at the time in the Persian Gulf. Our ships and their "navy" were trading fire so often it boggles the mind it didn't get worse.

I would never defend what happened with Iran Air 655 as it was a major Charlie Fox. But unlike this situation, the attempt was made to contact the airliner. It was 37 minutes behind schedule. And yes, an overly aggressive Captain took matters into his own hands.

Now should we apologize? Not until we get an apology for the thousands of people killed through terrorist groups around the world that the government of Iran sponsored, funded and equipped. Or when they violated our territorial integrity and held Americans hostage in clear violation of international treaties and conventions. Even during WWII we never stormed the Japanese or German embassies.

So why are we supposed to apologize to Iran for an accident when they have been supporting terrorism that's purposely killed thousands around the world since 1979? Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's a two way street here.

You're right that two wrongs don't make a right, but if we're going to identify ourselves as the "good guys", then we should act accordingly. The "good guys" don't sink to the level of those they see as wrong. More of the hypocrisy that is our govt in action IMO.

But as I stated previously, at this point, I'm in favor of letting the rest of the world fix their own damn problems. Time to stop being the "good guys", the "fall guys", or however the rest of the world wants to see us. Time to bring people home and time to start fixing all of our domestic problems. We've been so caught up in the troubles of everyone else that we've let our own house fall into disrepair. We're in need of an Extreme Home Makeover.

 

[volprof]

You're right that two wrongs don't make a right, but if we're going to identify ourselves as the "good guys", then we should act accordingly. The "good guys" don't sink to the level of those they see as wrong. More of the hypocrisy that is our govt in action IMO.

But as I stated previously, at this point, I'm in favor of letting the rest of the world fix their own damn problems. Time to stop being the "good guys", the "fall guys", or however the rest of the world wants to see us. Time to bring people home and time to start fixing all of our domestic problems. We've been so caught up in the troubles of everyone else that we've let our own house fall into disrepair. We're in need of an Extreme Home Makeover.

I wouldn't disagree with you.

 

[Grand Vol]

You're right that two wrongs don't make a right, but if we're going to identify ourselves as the "good guys", then we should act accordingly. The "good guys" don't sink to the level of those they see as wrong. More of the hypocrisy that is our govt in action IMO.

I said it last night that something that happened 25 years ago is hard to put against what just happened. The Iran Air 655 happened, we never apologized (but we did give reparations) and I wouldn't ever expect us to. We may call ourselves the "good guys" but what does Iran call us? Just some perspective on the situation.

But could you imagine if Obama apologized to Iran for that incident? Good grief, the screeching could be heard for light years.

But as I stated previously, at this point, I'm in favor of letting the rest of the world fix their own damn problems. Time to stop being the "good guys", the "fall guys", or however the rest of the world wants to see us. Time to bring people home and time to start fixing all of our domestic problems. We've been so caught up in the troubles of everyone else that we've let our own house fall into disrepair. We're in need of an Extreme Home Makeover.

I agree and disagree. I think no matter what we do in the world is going to be judged. If we go into another country and change the regime, we're the bad guy. If we are the most powerful country militarily and we sit at home and allow the slaughter of innocents by that country, we are the bad guy. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

I've said it before, sometimes we have to go into a person's front yard and kick their teeth in to prevent them from coming here and kicking our wife or kids. But I don't think, outside of some forward staging bases, these long term occupations are helpful. But overall, sometimes we have to go eff the other guy up as a reminder we aren't to be trifled with.

But your extreme home makeover just can't be done sadly enough. We're too far down that rabbit hole in my opinion.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Its amazing that on the one hand, with in hours, the US media, Washington and Kiev were able to unequivocally state that the Russians were responsible for downing this Malaysian airplane with a BUK missile. Yet, its been over 5 months and we still don't know what brought down the other Malaysian airplane.

So within hours, we can identify a missile and determine who and where it was launched, yet we don't have the ability to find an entire commercial airliner. Just amazing...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm hearing that some in the State Dept. are starting to suggest that the BUK came from Russia and wasn't just captured, like we had been hearing before. This is where I start to get very critical of our claims.

When you have John McCain and Barack Obama coming out in lock step with each other on a story, you should be cynical.