Malaysia Boeing 777

#352
#352
Weezer said:
Can someone please explain to me why when the U.S. screws up and civilians die, it's a tragedy, but when Russia does it (if they did it), it's a crime?
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The end result is similar.

One mitigating factor would be the extent to which the shooters went (or didn't go) trying to establish the identity of the plane beforehand.

I'm not up on the particulars of the Iranian airliner.
 
#353
#353
Weezer said:
Can someone please explain to me why when the U.S. screws up and civilians die, it's a tragedy, but when Russia does it (if they did it), it's a crime?

This whole thing smack of hypocrisy IMO.

Official or not, Russia is at war with the Ukraine. It sucks. I hate to see it. But they are two independent countries. In a tragic accident, civilians were killed. Hard pill to swallow, but unfortunately innocents are often killed in war. We, the U.S., are just as guilty of having killed innocents during times of war.

We went to war with Iraq(twice), did Russia interfere? Maybe they did and I just never heard of it. What about Afghanistan? Any Russian involvement? The U.S. does not have to participate in every war on the planet.

I'm as patriotic as any other poster on VN. I support my country. I love my country. But is continually interfering in the wars of other countries in our best interest? I just don't think it is. Unless something more sinister comes to light, I think we need to sit this one out. Let Europe deal with this mess. We have enough to worry about on the homefront without giving out massive military aid around the world. And for what? A financial debt that will be forgiven in less than 10 years? Not worth it at this point IMO.
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How many US soldiers/servicemen have been courts martialed for mistaken killings and such? We do hold our people accountable for much less than killing 200+ civilians at one pop.
 
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#354
#354
I would also say that the ones the US has gone to war with in the past 30 years or so have been "murderous, unelected regimes" (Whether or not that's the real motive.) I don't exactly see Kiev as a murderous, unelected regime, although Russians see it completely different I'm sure. A matter of national interest and perspective.

Now, before the past 30 years or so, that's a different story. But be careful. If you go too far, you're going to start comparing US interfering with that of Brezhnev, Krushchev, and Papa Bear Stalin. Our meddling was bad in those days (including deposing democratically elected candidates), but nothing compared to that crew. And millions of millions of murdered people would love to be alive today to tell you so.
 
#355
#355
hog88 said:
How many US soldiers/servicemen have been courts martialed for mistaken killings and such? We do hold our people accountable for much less than killing 200+ civilians at one pop.
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Soldiers get held accountable, not the entire U.S. Govt. And sometimes things get swept under the rug. Not every incident comes to light.

I still don't see how a soldier's mistake justifies us bankrolling a war. Most posters wanting to arm the Ukrainians are the same ones against welfare. So we want to give U.S. dollars to another country but not other American citizens? (FTR, I'm for major welfare reform.) Why start handing out cash and weapons to foreign countries when we can use that money here?
 
#356
#356
Weezer said:
Soldiers get held accountable, not the entire U.S. Govt. And sometimes things get swept under the rug. Not every incident comes to light.

I still don't see how a soldier's mistake justifies us bankrolling a war. Most posters wanting to arm the Ukrainians are the same ones against welfare. So we want to give U.S. dollars to another country but not other American citizens? (FTR, I'm for major welfare reform.) Why start handing out cash and weapons to foreign countries when we can use that money here?
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Your concerns aren't unfounded, and I don't claim that there isn't some hypocrisy on our side. However, the issue with the West and Russia dates back at least 500 or 600 years, the land currently known as "Ukraine" being one of the most significant components of that clash: it's the gateway for the West to launch into Russia and vice versa. Hollowed ground, if I may be permitted to be slightly perverse. To be cliche as hell: it is what it is...and always has been.
 
#357
#357
volprof said:
I would also say that the ones the US has gone to war with in the past 30 years or so have been "murderous, unelected regimes" (Whether or not that's the real motive.) I don't exactly see Kiev as a murderous, unelected regime, although Russians see it completely different I'm sure. A matter of national interest and perspective.

Now, before the past 30 years or so, that's a different story. But be careful. If you go too far, you're going to start comparing US interfering with that of Brezhnev, Krushchev, and Papa Bear Stalin. Our meddling was bad in those days (including deposing democratically elected candidates), but nothing compared to that crew. And millions of millions of murdered people would love to be alive today to tell you so.
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We helped put those "murderous, unelected regimes" into power.

Who said Kiev was one of those regimes? But, there are some Ukrainian citizens who wish to separate and join Russia. So who's right? It's an extremely grey area. Do they have the right to fight for their freedom? Do we have the right to tell them they can't?

If they can find the people culpable for shooting down the jet, I think they should be prosecuted. But the entire movement isn't culpable, individuals are.
 
#360
#360
Weezer said:
We helped put those "murderous, unelected regimes" into power.

Who said Kiev was one of those regimes? But, there are some Ukrainian citizens who wish to separate and join Russia. So who's right? It's an extremely grey area. Do they have the right to fight for their freedom? Do we have the right to tell them they can't?

If they can find the people culpable for shooting down the jet, I think they should be prosecuted. But the entire movement isn't culpable, individuals are.
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Yeah, I know. I can definitely see what you're saying. It is a bit hypocritical. I will say though that Russia's actions in Ukraine smack of land-grabbing, outright, in fact, with Crimea. I wouldn't be so sure about the grassroots nature of the protests in the eastern part of that country either. People protested there for like two weeks or so after the Maidan and Crimea, and the next thing you knew, men with camos, AKs, Grad launchers, and Pechenegs were ransacking city halls all across the region. Something about that just doesn't quite strike me as, let's just say, legitimate.
 
#361
#361
volprof said:
Yeah, I know. I can definitely see what you're saying. It is a bit hypocritical. I will say though that Russia's actions in Ukraine smack of land-grabbing, outright, in fact, with Crimea. I wouldn't be so sure about the grassroots nature of the protests in the eastern part of that country either. People protested there for like two weeks or so after the Maidan and Crimea, and the next thing you knew, men with camos, AKs, Grad launchers, and Pechenegs were ransacking city halls all across the region. Something about that just doesn't quite strike me as, let's just say, legitimate.
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Maybe it's legitimate, maybe it's not, but is it our business?
 
#362
#362
I'm hearing that some in the State Dept. are starting to suggest that the BUK came from Russia and wasn't just captured, like we had been hearing before. This is where I start to get very critical of our claims.
 
#364
#364
And ftr, the U.S. has never apologized for the downing of Iranian Flight 655, despite it being shown that the airliner was in no way at fault. The captain of the Vincennes was never held accountable by military justice. He killed 290 people "in one pop" yet was never brought up on charges. Not only did his own instrumentation on the ship disprove his claim that the airliner fit the profile of an attacking F-14, the entire incident took place in Iranian waters.

Oh, and there was one Italian on Flight 655. Should Italy have armed Iran?

Hell, despite "disappointment" from the international community, I don't think they ever even "condemned our actions". We certainly weren't sanctioned.
 
#365
#365
volprof said:
I'm hearing that some in the State Dept. are starting to suggest that the BUK came from Russia and wasn't just captured, like we had been hearing before. This is where I start to get very critical of our claims.
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The original source for the captured Ukrainian BUK missiles story appears to have been Russian media.

Pressimus | Press | Published by Interpreter_Mag

Accept it at your own risk.

Moreover, do you think these homegrown defense forces figured out how to use the system on their own? Is there a Yahoo! answers page on how to shoot down airliners?
 
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#367
#367
Weezer said:
And ftr, the U.S. has never apologized for the downing of Iranian Flight 655, despite it being shown that the airliner was in no way at fault. The captain of the Vincennes was never held accountable by military justice. He killed 290 people "in one pop" yet was never brought up on charges. Not only did his own instrumentation on the ship disprove his claim that the airliner fit the profile of an attacking F-14, the entire incident took place in Iranian waters.

Oh, and there was one Italian on Flight 655. Should Italy have armed Iran?

Hell, despite "disappointment" from the international community, I don't think they ever even "condemned our actions". We certainly weren't sanctioned.
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true...but they were still Iranians..lets not polish a turd.
 
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#368
#368
Weezer said:
And ftr, the U.S. has never apologized for the downing of Iranian Flight 655, despite it being shown that the airliner was in no way at fault. The captain of the Vincennes was never held accountable by military justice. He killed 290 people "in one pop" yet was never brought up on charges. Not only did his own instrumentation on the ship disprove his claim that the airliner fit the profile of an attacking F-14, the entire incident took place in Iranian waters.

Oh, and there was one Italian on Flight 655. Should Italy have armed Iran?

Hell, despite "disappointment" from the international community, I don't think they ever even "condemned our actions". We certainly weren't sanctioned.
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If you want to quote facts on that matter, how many times did the Vincennes attempt to contact said airliner? Was the airliner in an established airway? Was it on schedule when it passed over the Vincennes? And did the US Government make reparations to the families of the victims?
 
#370
#370
Grand Vol said:
If you want to quote facts on that matter, how many times did the Vincennes attempt to contact said airliner? Was the airliner in an established airway? Was it on schedule when it passed over the Vincennes? And did the US Government make reparations to the families of the victims?
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The Vincennes tried to communicate on frequencies the airliner could not receive. They never tried to communicate on standard ATC frequencies. The airliner was in an established airway. Instrumentation from the Vincennes retrieved after the incident clearly showed the airliner was ascending(standard for an airliner) and not descending(standard for a Tomcat on an attack run). The U.S. eventually agreed to make reparations, but it was not quick, and they never admitted fault(despite the ship's at the time state-of-the-art instrumentation showing clearly that the airliner had done absolutely nothing to identify it as a threat).
 
#371
#371
FLVOL_79 said:
true...but they were still Iranians..lets not polish a turd.
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Not all aboard were Iranians, but even if they had been, does that make them evil? Have you decided to take Mav's place as VN's "all Muslims are bad" proclaimer?
 
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#372
#372
Grand Vol said:
If you want to quote facts on that matter, how many times did the Vincennes attempt to contact said airliner? Was the airliner in an established airway? Was it on schedule when it passed over the Vincennes? And did the US Government make reparations to the families of the victims?
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I've also heard that American and Iranian ships had been trading some shots in the Gulf at that period in time, intensifying things, but I'm not sure
 
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#373
#373
Grand Vol said:
If you want to quote facts on that matter, how many times did the Vincennes attempt to contact said airliner? Was the airliner in an established airway? Was it on schedule when it passed over the Vincennes? And did the US Government make reparations to the families of the victims?
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Also, a fellow naval officer made note that the Vincennes captain had been overly-aggressive leading up to the incident, basically provoking the Iranians any chance he could get. And as I said before, this all happenned in Iranian waters, not international waters.
 
#374
#374
Velo Vol said:
The original source for the captured Ukrainian BUK missiles story appears to have been Russian media.

Pressimus | Press | Published by Interpreter_Mag

Accept it at your own risk.

Moreover, do you think these homegrown defense forces figured out how to use the system on their own? Is there a Yahoo! answers page on how to shoot down airliners?
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I was thinking though that Ukraine itself even claimed to have one stolen in the East. Am I right or wrong? Too many conflicting stories.
 
#375
#375
Can I just stop this briefly and ask how a Tomcat is involved here? I'm not questioning either side, but why the hell would we have thought an enemy Tomcat was approaching? Did we sell Tomcats to Iran?
 
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