Mashack and Dubar tonight

[Namorto1]

Not playing Dubar more minutes is a mistake in my opinion. I don't think he is necessarily the answer to our offensive woes, but we are terribly thin and if he checks out mentality our bench goes to 2 players.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Not playing Dubar more minutes is a mistake in my opinion. I don't think he is necessarily the answer to our offensive woes, but we are terribly thin and if he checks out mentality our bench goes to 2 players.

I totally agree. A lot of people say it's because of his D, but honestly he doesn't look that bad on D.
I mean not bad enough you can't play him some more minutes in hopes you end up gaining some offensive production and take some pressure of Lanier/ give ZZ someone else to look for.
He seems to be decent 3 point shooter.
Like you said tho, eventually he just checks out if he never gets a real chance to play any meaningful role.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Not playing Dubar more minutes is a mistake in my opinion. I don't think he is necessarily the answer to our offensive woes, but we are terribly thin and if he checks out mentality our bench goes to 2 players.

I agree. From where I sit he looks to be the 2nd or 3rd best 3 PT shooter on the team. Needs more minutes.

 

[cncchris33]

@Anti-shunshinepumper

Three games have passed since our discussion on Mashack/Dubar. They've combined to score 28 points, total (9.3 ppg). Can you now see why I feel like averaging 15 ppg from those two, combined, is maybe being optimistic?

Personally, I just don't see Dubar getting enough minutes to be what you think he can. Tonight, he was awful and Barnes seems to be running out of patience. Mashack, on the other hand, was pretty good minus his ugly brick and air ball, his only two misses.

From game to game, either one of those two guys will have a decent offensive performance, but hardly ever together because they are both so low on the scoring ladder. Like I said before, I just don't see the two of them getting enough scoring opportunities to average 15 ppg. They've only combined to hit that number twice in 14 attempts, now.

I'm really not looking to poke the bear, here. Just curious if you still disagree or if you've adjusted that expectation. Maybe 10 ppg, even 12, perhaps, is a more realistic goal.

 

[Namorto1]

Our inconsistent scoring I’m afraid is going to limit this group. Not sure we can expect more from Lanier, Gainey and Zeigler. Okapara has pulled his weight as has Phillips based on their roles.

Against better teams it comes down to what we can get from Milicic, Mashack and Dubar. Would kinda like to see some offense run through Igor at high post much like they used to do with Grant Williams at times.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

@Anti-shunshinepumper

Three games have passed since our discussion on Mashack/Dubar. They've combined to score 28 points, total (9.3 ppg). Can you now see why I feel like averaging 15 ppg from those two, combined, is maybe being optimistic?

Personally, I just don't see Dubar getting enough minutes to be what you think he can. Tonight, he was awful and Barnes seems to be running out of patience. Mashack, on the other hand, was pretty good minus his ugly brick and air ball, his only two misses.

From game to game, either one of those two guys will have a decent offensive performance, but hardly ever together because they are both so low on the scoring ladder. Like I said before, I just don't see the two of them getting enough scoring opportunities to average 15 ppg. They've only combined to hit that number twice in 14 attempts, now.

I'm really not looking to poke the bear, here. Just curious if you still disagree or if you've adjusted that expectation. Maybe 10 ppg, even 12, perhaps, is a more realistic goal.

If you've read everything I have been posting I was saying what they needed for us to win road games in the SEC (also included tournament time throughout discussion).
If you want I can go back in this thread and pull multiple quotes for you where I mentioned this.
I never thought they necessarily needed what I stated for us to win home games ( although one or two they might).

You've seen what teams have been doing to Chaz on the road, and how he has struggled because of the double team.
We lost to Flordia on the road, and now Vanderbilt on the road. A team we really had no business losing to btw, and we certainly wouldn't have lost that one at home.
The only game we did win on the road in the SEC was the Texas game where Dubar hit 12 and Mashack got 6. So nothing has really changed in regards.
If anything that Vanderbilt loss actually supports my argument.

Dubar really didn't get any minutes in either of the last two games. Like 7 mins each game.
That's not enough minutes to get going or tell you that much about his true potential, my guy.

All the other players have been afforded the minutes and grace to be able to find their shot/ build some chemistry/play through their misses/get some points/get more experience etc.
It seems Dubar has an extremely short leash, and I can't exactly figure it out. I do think it comes back to bite us tournament time, tho. Mark my words.

I believe he is a lot better player than 4-5 points ppg ( road or home *if he is given the extra time and opportunity to carve put a meaningful role.
DO YOU THINK HIS MAXIMUM POTENTIAL IS ONLY 4-5 POINTS A GAME? ( bold so you can't miss the question for a 6th time)
Genuinely curious......not trying to be argumentative, btw.

But yeah, I still feel about the same way. Mashack needs to be getting his 5-6 point average every night ( home or away). He needs that no matter what Dubar scores for us to have any real chance on the road and come tourney time. At home, yes, we can probably skimp by most games with him not giving any points.

As far as Dubar, we are going to need him to get about 9-10 on the road/tourney time.
The games where this ( what I just wrote) doesn't happen, we will not win many (IMO) to say the least.
Moreover, I would bet willing to bet money we win any games on the road they do average 15 as a combo.

In conclusion, that's what I believe. And yes, I still think it is realistic/doable.
I guess we'll see if I'm wrong/right as those games come up.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Our inconsistent scoring I’m afraid is going to limit this group. Not sure we can expect more from Lanier, Gainey and Zeigler. Okapara has pulled his weight as has Phillips based on their roles.

Against better teams it comes down to what we can get from Milicic, Mashack and Dubar. Would kinda like to see some offense run through Igor at high post much like they used to do with Grant Williams at times.

Yep, like it or not come tournament time if we don't get meaningful production/points from Milicic, Shack, and Dubar ( all 3) we will not be going very far.

 

[chuckiepoo]

It seems Dubar has an extremely short leash, and I can't exactly figure it out.

Two end of game situations I am sure irritated the Deacon then tonight’s brief stint where he fired off a shot shortly after the ball crossed midcourt. He doesn’t appear to be picking up what the staff is putting down.

 

[cncchris33]

If you've read everything I have been posting I was saying what they needed for us to win road games in the SEC (also included tournament time throughout discussion).
If you want I can go back in this thread and pull multiple quotes for you where I mentioned this.
I never thought they necessarily needed what I stated for us to win home games ( although one or two they might).

You've seen what teams have been doing to Chaz on the road, and how he has struggled because of the double team.
We lost to Flordia on the road, and now Vanderbilt on the road. A team we really had no business losing to btw, and we certainly wouldn't have lost that one at home.
The only game we did win on the road in the SEC was the Texas game where Dubar hit 12 and Mashack got 6. So nothing has really changed in regards.
If anything that Vanderbilt loss actually supports my argument.

Dubar really didn't get any minutes in either of the last two games. Like 7 mins each game.
That's not enough minutes to get going or tell you that much about his true potential, my guy.

All the other players have been afforded the minutes and grace to be able to find their shot/ build some chemistry/play through their misses/get some points/get more experience etc.
It seems Dubar has an extremely short leash, and I can't exactly figure it out. I do think it comes back to bite us tournament time, tho. Mark my words.

I believe he is a lot better player than 4-5 points ppg ( road or home *if he is given the extra time and opportunity to carve put a meaningful role.
DO YOU THINK HIS MAXIMUM POTENTIAL IS ONLY 4-5 POINTS A GAME? ( bold so you can't miss the question for a 6th time)
Genuinely curious......not trying to be argumentative, btw.

But yeah, I still feel about the same way. Mashack needs to be getting his 5-6 point average every night ( home or away). He needs that no matter what Dubar scores for us to have any real chance on the road and come tourney time. At home, yes, we can probably skimp by most games with him not giving any points.

As far as Dubar, we are going to need him to get about 9-10 on the road/tourney time.
The games where this ( what I just wrote) doesn't happen, we will not win many (IMO) to say the least.
Moreover, I would bet willing to bet money we win any games on the road they do average 15 as a combo.

In conclusion, that's what I believe. And yes, I still think it is realistic/doable.
I guess we'll see if I'm wrong/right as those games come up.

Well, I guess we will continue to disagree on that matter, then, which is fine.

No, I don't think Dubar is going to average 9-10 ppg, home or away. No, I don't think he's capable of it because he isn't going to get the minutes necessary to achieve it. In this instance, correlation does imply causation. The two issues are directly related. Assuming no other injuries, IMO he isn't going to play enough minutes because he's proving he isn't reliable enough doing the little things necessary to get more floor time. As another poster recently mentioned, he has an irrational confidence on offense. He took a couple bad shots, tonight, and then of course, he fouled a 3-pt shooter. 5 shots in 7 minutes easily paced the team in shots per minute ratio. It almost feels like he knows he's not going to get 25 minutes in a game, so he presses to make an impact by cramming 25 minutes worth of offensive looks into 7 minutes, which leads to some bad decisions and rushed shots, which Barnes is not a fan of. When the shot falls, it doesn't look so bad, but on a night like tonight, 1/5 in 7 minutes is a pretty unattractive box score.

I just don't see any way that our #7 & #8 scoring options are going to combine to average 15 ppg, no matter if it's at home or on the road. In three road games, they've averaged less than 8 ppg, so far. Expecting that average to double seems ambitious, though I agree, if it happens, we likely win far more often than not. Point in fact, we are 1-2 in SEC road games. In the one win, they combined for 18 points. In the two losses, they combined for 0 and 5 pts.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

He took a couple bad shots, tonight, and then of course, he fouled a 3-pt shooter. 5 shots in 7 minutes easily paced the team in shots per minute ratio. It almost feels like he knows he's not going to get 25 minutes in a game, so he presses to make an impact by cramming 25 minutes worth of offensive looks into 7 minutes, which leads to some bad decisions and rushed shots, which Barnes is not a fan of

I'm sure him knowing he's not going to get any minutes makes him want to try to prove his worth in the short time he has. Definitely causing him to rush his shots. No doubt.
At this point he probably feels he isn't going to be in the game long because all year Barnes puts him in for very short stretches. I've seen him make a shot and Barnes takes him out.
For whatever reason, Barnes is making sure to give Igor all the minutes he can handle.
He has looked terrible at times, and gets to play right on through it. All year.
I digress.

Barnes is the coach. How the players ultimately succeed and this team succeeds is all on him.
I personally feel he could make more of an effort to get Dubar going. I'm not in practice tho, maybe he's not putting in the work or has a bad attitude or something.

I do know that the rest of the road games and come tourney time we are going to have to have some more offense. Have to.
Dubar was a really good 3- point shooter at Hofstra. Be really nice if Barnes could figure out how to get that to translate here.
I think in the end Barnes will have no choice but to play Dubar more. We haven't got to that point yet, tho.

Point in fact, we are 1-2 in SEC road games. In the one win, they combined for 18 points. In the two losses, they combined for 0 and 5 pts.

Tell me about it, they need to score for us to win when we don't have the comforts of home. If they would, we'd win games like that Vandy game zero problem.
It's why I made this thread and started talking about what we need from them.
If they don't on the road and in the tourney, we will be some very disappointed fans.

But again, I'm not sure how pragmatic it is to hope Igor re-learns how to shoot a 3, decides to start finishing at the rim, and at the same time Gainey decides to be uber efficient.
I think it might be more wise to try to unlock Dubar's potential than hope for that.
I mean Mashack can get the 5-6, he just needs to step up and do it on the road consistently. I believe Dubar can do a lot better than 4-5, just needs Barnes to carve him out a role and set him up for success.

This is just my opinion. I know you disagree. We've stated our points ad nauseam.
Going back over it at this point is beating a dead horse.
We'll see what happens as the games continue.

 

[gainesvol82]

If you've read everything I have been posting I was saying what they needed for us to win road games in the SEC (also included tournament time throughout discussion).
If you want I can go back in this thread and pull multiple quotes for you where I mentioned this.
I never thought they necessarily needed what I stated for us to win home games ( although one or two they might).

You've seen what teams have been doing to Chaz on the road, and how he has struggled because of the double team.
We lost to Flordia on the road, and now Vanderbilt on the road. A team we really had no business losing to btw, and we certainly wouldn't have lost that one at home.
The only game we did win on the road in the SEC was the Texas game where Dubar hit 12 and Mashack got 6. So nothing has really changed in regards.
If anything that Vanderbilt loss actually supports my argument.

Dubar really didn't get any minutes in either of the last two games. Like 7 mins each game.
That's not enough minutes to get going or tell you that much about his true potential, my guy.

All the other players have been afforded the minutes and grace to be able to find their shot/ build some chemistry/play through their misses/get some points/get more experience etc.
It seems Dubar has an extremely short leash, and I can't exactly figure it out. I do think it comes back to bite us tournament time, tho. Mark my words.

I believe he is a lot better player than 4-5 points ppg ( road or home *if he is given the extra time and opportunity to carve put a meaningful role.
DO YOU THINK HIS MAXIMUM POTENTIAL IS ONLY 4-5 POINTS A GAME? ( bold so you can't miss the question for a 6th time)
Genuinely curious......not trying to be argumentative, btw.

But yeah, I still feel about the same way. Mashack needs to be getting his 5-6 point average every night ( home or away). He needs that no matter what Dubar scores for us to have any real chance on the road and come tourney time. At home, yes, we can probably skimp by most games with him not giving any points.

As far as Dubar, we are going to need him to get about 9-10 on the road/tourney time.
The games where this ( what I just wrote) doesn't happen, we will not win many (IMO) to say the least.
Moreover, I would bet willing to bet money we win any games on the road they do average 15 as a combo.

In conclusion, that's what I believe. And yes, I still think it is realistic/doable.
I guess we'll see if I'm wrong/right as those games come up.

Dubar has flashed a few times but he is too concerned with scoring in his limited minutes. It's worked a couple games but when he plays selfishly outside the flow of the offense, like he did tonight against Miss St., he hurts the team. Especially if he is going to lose his man, be slow to switch or foul on 3 point shots.

If he focused on movement, cutting to the basket or hard to the 3 point line, using his size to bully his way to the basket, passing when he should and generally making the right play then he could really be an asset. Seems like he regrets his transfer here and isn't willing to buy in fully and do the work. It's frustrating because he could really boost our ceiling.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Dubar has flashed a few times but he is too concerned with scoring in his limited minutes. It's worked a couple games but when he plays selfishly outside the flow of the offense, like he did tonight against Miss St., he hurts the team. Especially if he is going to lose his man, be slow to switch or foul on 3 point shots.

If he focused on movement, cutting to the basket or hard to the 3 point line, using his size to bully his way to the basket, passing when he should and generally making the right play then he could really be an asset. Seems like he regrets his transfer here and isn't willing to buy in fully and do the work. It's frustrating because he could really boost our ceiling.

I agree with this. For whatever reason, he hasn't bought in (not necessarily willing to buy just yet it's solely his play because I have seen others play like doo-doo and get to stay in longer) .

I think it became clear early on for him and Carr they weren't going to get minutes this year.
At least he didn't quit, and if we lucky he decides to buy in come tourney time.

 

[chuckiepoo]

I agree with this. For whatever reason, he hasn't bought in (not necessarily willing to buy just yet it's solely his play because I have seen others play like doo-doo and get to stay in longer) .

I think it became clear early on for him and Carr they weren't going to get minutes this year.
At least he didn't quit, and if we lucky he decides to buy in come tourney time.

He needs to buy in well before the tournament, or he’ll see less time as opposed to more.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

He needs to buy in well before the tournament, or he’ll see less time as opposed to more.

You're probably exactly right on that, but unfortunately, I'm probably right about losing the road games he doesn’t necessarily give us points in.

 

[gainesvol82]

I'm sure him knowing he's not going to get any minutes makes him want to try to prove his worth in the short time he has. Definitely causing him to rush his shots. No doubt.
At this point he probably feels he isn't going to be in the game long because all year Barnes puts him in for very short stretches. I've seen him make a shot and Barnes takes him out.
For whatever reason, Barnes is making sure to give Igor all the minutes he can handle.
He has looked terrible at times, and gets to play right on through it. All year.
I digress.

Barnes is the coach. How the players ultimately succeed and this team succeeds is all on him.
I personally feel he could make more of an effort to get Dubar going. I'm not in practice tho, maybe he's not putting in the work or has a bad attitude or something.

I do know that the rest of the road games and come tourney time we are going to have to have some more offense. Have to.
Dubar was a really good 3- point shooter at Hofstra. Be really nice if Barnes could figure out how to get that to translate here.
I think in the end Barnes will have no choice but to play Dubar more. We haven't got to that point yet, tho.



Tell me about it, they need to score for us to win when we don't have the comforts of home. If they would, we'd win games like that Vandy game zero problem.
It's why I made this thread and started talking about what we need from them.
If they don't on the road and in the tourney, we will be some very disappointed fans.

But again, I'm not sure how pragmatic it is to hope Igor re-learns how to shoot a 3, decides to start finishing at the rim, and at the same time Gainey decides to be uber efficient.
I think it might be more wise to try to unlock Dubar's potential than hope for that.
I mean Mashack can get the 5-6, he just needs to step up and do it on the road consistently. I believe Dubar can do a lot better than 4-5, just needs Barnes to carve him out a role and set him up for success.

This is just my opinion. I know you disagree. We've stated our points ad nauseam.
Going back over it at this point is beating a dead horse.
We'll see what happens as the games continue.

Igor has significantly more potential in his all around game and he defends and rebounds at a very high level as well as passing well.

Igor is always high on the effort/energy details that Barnes loves and is a matchup nightmare when he plays smart and attacks the basket aggressively. His 3 point shooting percentage is also picking up lately. I'd like Igor to be more aggressive at times on offense when he has room to rise up and shoot and also shot fake and attack the rim more.

Dubar just isn't playing like he accepts his role or is willing to earn more minutes by doing what Barnes wants. I'd love for him to buy in and be the weapon he can be in his final season playing college ball but I think he is mostly going to do what he wants despite it hurting him and the team. That means his minutes, and therefore his production, will stay limited.

You would think that the loss of Carr and Estrella along with Phillips being hurt would have made Dubar step up but he mostly has not which is frustrating.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Dubar really struggled last night...the worst he has looked for us imo. Hopefully he learns from it and comes back better going forward.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

@Anti-shunshinepumper

Three games have passed since our discussion on Mashack/Dubar. They've combined to score 28 points, total (9.3 ppg). Can you now see why I feel like averaging 15 ppg from those two, combined, is maybe being optimistic?

Personally, I just don't see Dubar getting enough minutes to be what you think he can. Tonight, he was awful and Barnes seems to be running out of patience. Mashack, on the other hand, was pretty good minus his ugly brick and air ball, his only two misses.

From game to game, either one of those two guys will have a decent offensive performance, but hardly ever together because they are both so low on the scoring ladder. Like I said before, I just don't see the two of them getting enough scoring opportunities to average 15 ppg. They've only combined to hit that number twice in 14 attempts, now.

I'm really not looking to poke the bear, here. Just curious if you still disagree or if you've adjusted that expectation. Maybe 10 ppg, even 12, perhaps, is a more realistic goal.

Good news is that Jahmai has now scored 10 or more in 2 of the last 3 games. Hopefully this trend continues...really need him to find ways to get to the basket for some easy points (at least enough to keep the D honest and give us some point blank shots or trips to the line).

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Two end of game situations I am sure irritated the Deacon then tonight’s brief stint where he fired off a shot shortly after the ball crossed midcourt. He doesn’t appear to be picking up what the staff is putting down.

Followed up by immediately fouling a 3pt shooter as well

 

[Col_Cathcart]

Good news is that Jahmai has now scored 10 or more in 2 of the last 3 games. Hopefully this trend continues...really need him to find ways to get to the basket for some easy points (at least enough to keep the D honest and give us some point blank shots or trips to the line).

I don’t know if we’ll continue to see that level of production from Mashack, but we might if teams continue to completely ignore him on that end. He’s got enough of an offensive game to keep them honest (assuming he actually takes shots).

He had that hand injury. I wonder if that’s finally healed up to the point where it’s not bothering him anymore?

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

I don’t know if we’ll continue to see that level of production from Mashack, but we might if teams continue to completely ignore him on that end. He’s got enough of an offensive game to keep them honest (assuming he actually takes shots).

He had that hand injury. I wonder if that’s finally healed up to the point where it’s not bothering him anymore?

Me either but it sure has been nice. He has the ability to score at the rim or deep in the paint - need him to continue looking for that esp when they sag off him.

 

[ndubvols]

Biggest thing we need from mashack is to be aggressive cutting and getting to the rim. Hit the occasional open 3 to keep them honest, but he’s one of the few we have that can get on the lane and finish at the rim.

 

[gainesvol82]

I agree with this. For whatever reason, he hasn't bought in (not necessarily willing to buy just yet it's solely his play because I have seen others play like doo-doo and get to stay in longer) .

I think it became clear early on for him and Carr they weren't going to get minutes this year.
At least he didn't quit, and if we lucky he decides to buy in come tourney time.

Agreed, except..... accepting that you won't be able to earn minutes so deciding to play outside of the offense is the opposite of a competitor. It's Dubar's last season to play college ball and he continues to throw up multiple bad shots a game while not looking to pass and playing lazy D (for a Barnes player).

He had a couple of good games when his outside shot was falling but he doesn't take enough of his shots within the flow of the offense by getting open with movement and swinging the ball back if he doesn't have anything. He usually stands just beyond the 3 point line and take defended shots.

I like the confidence but he has the ability to contribute more to one of the best teams in the country with smarter, higher effort and less selfish play. He hasn't done the things Barnes looks for in order to earn extra minutes.....hope that changes.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Dubar really struggled last night...the worst he has looked for us imo. Hopefully he learns from it and comes back better going forward.

He did have that one nice drive into lane with a quick, powerful one hander. We need more of that. Maybe the coaches would like to see be that aggressive all the time. He will always be able to get 3 pt looks, but if he becomes more consistent driving to the basket, he could be a force

 

[tennrich1]

I don’t know if we’ll continue to see that level of production from Mashack, but we might if teams continue to completely ignore him on that end. He’s got enough of an offensive game to keep them honest (assuming he actually takes shots).

He had that hand injury. I wonder if that’s finally healed up to the point where it’s not bothering him anymore?

Rick has mentioned the hand/finger multiple times without making a big deal about it. It clearly seems Shack is still dealing with that injury.

 

[tennrich1]

Biggest thing we need from mashack is to be aggressive cutting and getting to the rim. Hit the occasional open 3 to keep them honest, but he’s one of the few we have that can get on the lane and finish at the rim.

I agree completely. His aggression to the goal helps keep the defense honest and he seems to be working on a little floater in front of the rim as well.