Missionaries, your thoughts?

#104
#104
therealUT said:
Appeal started with his Groundwork, a great argument for morality without religion (and, a morality that is, in my opinion, stronger than any morality I have seen professed by any religious system (previous to that, I very much thought the Thomist view of morality was the most firm)).

After that, I began rereading a lot of the philosophical and theological texts I had read up to that time and tried to reconcile pure philosophical views with Christian views; sans immediate, personal revelation, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot and that I must rely on the best faculty I have: reason.

Once I had then been able to step outside of the bounds of my Christian worldview, then I took a very skeptical eye to Christian (and World) History and found that Christianity, in my opinion, has been just as good and just as bad as any other religion and that it could never succeed in being as good as an ideal Kantian society.
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What exactly were your beliefs before your Kantian revelation?
 
#107
#107
KiffinKiller said:
oe, sorry.
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It is something I still have conflict every day. From a completely rationale humanistic point of view christianity is silly. Jefferson may have had it right with his view.....i will attempt to explain further
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#109
#109
OrangeEmpire said:
I am though, I mean, you potrayed a strong catholic viewpoint, other factors in play?
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Observing the lack of progress in Iraq in 2009-2010 made me question "noble causes"; following trips to India, Dubai, Qatar, and Rome made me question how "religious money" is being spent in the world and for what good.

The older I've gotten and the more places I have traveled, the more I have seen, like Candide, that the world is not a great place and that institutions that ostensibly operate to help make the world a better place not only fail but prioritize the good of the institution over the good of the world.
 
#111
#111
arTfuldodger said:
Yes they do. Just because they can't/don't articulate it doesn't mean their actions don't show you their allegiance.
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Are you a mind reader? I do not worship anything.

worship, v.
Pronunciation: /ˈwɜːʃɪp/
Forms: α. ME worĂľ-, worssipie; ME (15 Sc.) worschipe, ME worschupe, ME–15 worschype (15 worschypen); ME worshipe(n), worsshipe, worshepe(n), ME– worshupe; ME worschippe, ME worshippe, ME–15 worshyppe; ME worsip, ME (15 Sc.) worschip (ME worschyp), ME–15 worshyp, ME– worship; 15 woorship, Sc. wourschip; ME worchip (ME worchep, worchyp, worchyppyn), ME worchipe (ME worchepe, worchepyn). β. ME wurĂ°supen, wursipe, ME wurshepe, wurschip, wurshup, wurchippe, wurchep, 15 wurship. γ. (Chiefly north. and Sc.) ME wyrschipe, wirschipe, ME wirschepe, virschepe; ME wirsc(h)ippe, ME wirschuppe; ME wirscip ( wirscep), ME wirschip (15 -schep, virschip); ME wirchip(e, wirchep, wyrchip.
Etymology: Early Middle English wurĂľ- , worĂľscipien , < wurĂľ- , worĂľscipe worship n.
1.
a. trans. To honour or revere as a supernatural being or power, or as a holy thing; to regard or approach with veneration; to adore with appropriate acts, rites, or ceremonies.
b. transf. To regard with extreme respect or devotion; to ‘adore’.
c. absol. To engage in worship; to perform, or take part in, the act of worship.
†2.
a. trans. To honour; to regard or treat with honour or respect. Obs.
b. To treat with signs of honour or respect; to salute, bow down to. Obs.
c. To honour with gifts, etc. Obs.
3. To invest with, raise to, honour or repute; to confer honour or dignity upon. Obs.
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The latter three definitions are obsolete.
 
#112
#112
PKT_VOL said:
images
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Why the belittling comment?
 
#113
#113
therealUT said:
Are you a mind reader? I do not worship anything.



The latter three definitions are obsolete.
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You live your life based on what you deem to be your "purpose" I choose to call it active worship.

"We all have objectives that direct our choices. Some folks can articulate their goals. Other goals are implied by the choices we make"
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#114
#114
arTfuldodger said:
You live your life based on what you deem to be your "purpose" I choose to call it active worship.

"We all have objectives that direct our choices. Some folks can articulate their goals. Other goals are implied by the choices we make"
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Nothing in the definition of "worship" includes anything about "purpose".

worship, v.
Pronunciation: /&#712;w&#604;&#720;&#643;&#618;p/
Forms: &#945;. ME worþ-, worssipie; ME (15 Sc.) worschipe, ME worschupe, ME–15 worschype (15 worschypen); ME worshipe(n), worsshipe, worshepe(n), ME– worshupe; ME worschippe, ME worshippe, ME–15 worshyppe; ME worsip, ME (15 Sc.) worschip (ME worschyp), ME–15 worshyp, ME– worship; 15 woorship, Sc. wourschip; ME worchip (ME worchep, worchyp, worchyppyn), ME worchipe (ME worchepe, worchepyn). &#946;. ME wurðsupen, wursipe, ME wurshepe, wurschip, wurshup, wurchippe, wurchep, 15 wurship. &#947;. (Chiefly north. and Sc.) ME wyrschipe, wirschipe, ME wirschepe, virschepe; ME wirsc(h)ippe, ME wirschuppe; ME wirscip ( wirscep), ME wirschip (15 -schep, virschip); ME wirchip(e, wirchep, wyrchip.
Etymology: Early Middle English wurĂľ- , worĂľscipien , < wurĂľ- , worĂľscipe worship n.
1.
a. trans. To honour or revere as a supernatural being or power, or as a holy thing; to regard or approach with veneration; to adore with appropriate acts, rites, or ceremonies.
b. transf. To regard with extreme respect or devotion; to ‘adore’.
c. absol. To engage in worship; to perform, or take part in, the act of worship.
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You are redefining the word "worship" to fit your view. I will once again assert, though, that I do not worship anything.
 
#115
#115
therealUT said:
Nothing in the definition of "worship" includes anything about "purpose".



You are redefining the word "worship" to fit your view. I will once again assert, though, that I do not worship anything.
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Call it whatever you wish. We all devote ourselves to something. What I'm speaking of may not be the webster's definition of worship, but I think you know what I mean. If not, I'll work on trying to word it better.
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#116
#116
arTfuldodger said:
Call it whatever you wish. We all devote ourselves to something. What I'm speaking of may not be the webster's definition of worship, but I think you know what I mean. If not, I'll work on trying to word it better.
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I do not "devote" myself to anything, either.

devote, v.
Pronunciation: /d&#618;&#712;v&#601;&#650;t/
Etymology: < Latin d&#275;v&#333;t- , participial stem of d&#275;vov&#275;re to vow, dedicate by a vow, devote, < de- prefix 1b + vov&#275;re to vow, dedicate: compare also the Latin frequentative d&#275;v&#333;t&#257;re , in medieval Latin much used for d&#275;vov&#275;re .
1. trans. To appropriate by, or as if by, a vow; to set apart or dedicate solemnly or formally; to consecrate (to).
2. To give up, addict, apply zealously or exclusively (to a pursuit, occupation, etc., or to a particular purpose); esp. refl. to devote oneself .
3.
a. To give over or consign to the powers of evil or to destruction; to doom; to invoke or pronounce a curse upon.
b. To invoke or pronounce (a curse). Obs.
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Aiming at a purpose is not synonymous with "worship" or "devotion". I am not sure how the words "devote" and "worship" have been so profaned by vulgar usage that many apply these terms to notions in which they should never have been nor ever should be applied.
 
#118
#118
therealUT said:
I do not "devote" myself to anything, either.



Aiming at a purpose is not synonymous with "worship" or "devotion". I am not sure how the words "devote" and "worship" have been so profaned by vulgar usage that many apply these terms to notions in which they should never have been nor ever should be applied.
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Ok. I disagree. I'm not trying to argue or convert you. I do however, believe there is but one truth. (It's not Horus, or Horace, either....LoL, I jest)
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#119
#119
For instance, what word(action verb) would you use to describe the passion and vigor with which environmentalist(pantheists) push and pour themselves into their mother-earth movement? What about scientist in the 19th century? That kind of drive and motivating faith is what I'm calling worship. To me worship isn't a song, vigil, or religious ritual. Rather, it's a lifestyle. It's lived out every day. I believe our actions will show whether we worship the creator or the creation.
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#120
#120
arTfuldodger said:
For instance, what word(action verb) would you use to describe the passion and vigor with which environmentalist(pantheists) push and pour themselves into their mother-earth movement? What about scientist in the 19th century? That kind of drive and motivating faith is what I'm calling worship. To me worship isn't a song, vigil, or religious ritual. Rather, it's a lifestyle. It's lived out every day.
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Not everyone falls into such categories; I know that I do not. I am not arguing that against your assertion that some persons worship nature. I am arguing against your assertion that every person worships something.

arTfuldodger said:
I believe our actions will show whether we worship the creator or the creation.
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I know of no manner in which one could possibly worship said creator without simultaneously worshiping part of said creation.
 
#121
#121
Pro missionary position, but there are many other avenues to pursue. Just sayin imo.
 
#122
#122
therealUT said:
Not everyone falls into such categories; I know that I do not. I am not arguing that against your assertion that some persons worship nature. I am arguing against your assertion that every person worships something.



I know of no manner in which one could possibly worship said creator without simultaneously worshiping part of said creation.
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Got ya. We disagree. No sweat. As for #2, no doubt that part of the creation would lend itself to worshiping the creator.I believe the we are called to interact with the creation(including our own body. I'm looking @ you, obese Baptist @ Golden Coral on Sunday =)...) in a specific manor, and that ultimately is our act of worship to the creator. Anyway, I'll let it be.
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#123
#123
therealUT said:
Appeal started with his Groundwork, a great argument for morality without religion (and, a morality that is, in my opinion, stronger than any morality I have seen professed by any religious system (previous to that, I very much thought the Thomist view of morality was the most firm)).

After that, I began rereading a lot of the philosophical and theological texts I had read up to that time and tried to reconcile pure philosophical views with Christian views; sans immediate, personal revelation, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot and that I must rely on the best faculty I have: reason.

Once I had then been able to step outside of the bounds of my Christian worldview, then I took a very skeptical eye to Christian (and World) History and found that Christianity, in my opinion, has been just as good and just as bad as any other religion and that it could never succeed in being as good as an ideal Kantian society.
Click to expand...

What do you think of Critique of Pure Reason, A811:
Morality, by itself, constitutes a system, but happiness does not, unless it is distributed in exact proportion to morality. This, however, is possible in an intelligible world only under a wise author and ruler. Reason compels us to admit such a ruler, together with life in such a world, which we must consider as future life, or else all moral laws are to be considered as idle dreams
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The above was a reference to God and the afterlife, I think. Could be wrong. Not a big fan of Kant, so I haven't studied it too much.
 
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