Mormon Proxy Baptisms

#51
#51
orangeslice13 said:
T-Town, do you think there are levels of judgement?
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I believe that man will be judged as to the amount of "light" that they have been exposed to. The Bible tells us that full time pastors/teachers of the Bible will be judged at a different level.
So, to answer your question, yes.
 
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#52
#52
PKT_VOL said:
Just curious, from your posts, you seem to imply that churches are obsolete and unnecessary. Would that be a correct inference?
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Nope, the Bible tells Christians to gather together with like minded believers to worship and gain encouragement from one another. The local church has a very important roll in the life of a Christian and has specific duties to care for its members/others as well as spread the gospel.
My posts are to point out to the unbelievers that what they percive as "religion/religious" is all the ideas of man and, for the most part, does not reflect Christ.
 
#53
#53
T-TownVol said:
My posts are to point out to the unbelievers that what they percive as "religion/religious" is all the ideas of man and, for the most part, does not reflect Christ.
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so . . . As a man, why are your interpretations better?
 
#54
#54
GAVol said:
so . . . As a man, why are your interpretations better?
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I think T does a good job of being based in Scripture as a foundation for his beliefs.
he gives his opinion and the Scripture so others can draw their own conclusion.
Ultimately it's up to each person to know for themself what they believe.
If there is a God, and I believe there is, standing in front of Him and saying "Fred has a science degree and told me there was no God. He's smart so I believed him" will not excuse you. You better have your own thoughts.
 
#55
#55
GAVol said:
so . . . As a man, why are your interpretations better?
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I do not mean to come off that way. If I do, I am sorry. I always try to, but sometimes forget as the thoughts race through my small mind, reference that what I type is not my personal opinion but what comes straight from the Bible. I am FAR from any kind of expert or theologian. The Bible does say that Christians are given a better understanding, through the Holy Spirit, of the meaning of scripture than non-believers. I know that is dismissed by most, but as I read scripture the Holy Spirit does give me thoughts to ponder. (foot notes in the Bible are extremely helpful also)
GA, have I stated something that you do not agree that Bible says?
 
#58
#58
T-TownVol said:
Nope, the Bible tells Christians to gather together with like minded believers to worship and gain encouragement from one another. The local church has a very important roll in the life of a Christian and has specific duties to care for its members/others as well as spread the gospel.
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Fair enough.

T-TownVol said:
My posts are to point out to the unbelievers that what they percive as "religion/religious" is all the ideas of man and, for the most part, does not reflect Christ.
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I would give this statement credence if the Bible was written by Christ. However, that is not the case. It was written by man via experience (direct knowledge of Christ) or revelation. Both are inevitably perceptions of Christ and therefore render it impossible only by reading or hearing the Gospel to be enlightened to the true essence of Christ.
 
#59
#59
PKT_VOL said:
Fair enough.



I would give this statement credence if the Bible was written by Christ. However, that is not the case. It was written by man via experience (direct knowledge of Christ) or revelation. Both are inevitably perceptions of Christ and therefore render it impossible only by reading or hearing the Gospel to be enlightened to the true essence of Christ.
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I agree that it is impossible if one is not open to receiving Christ. Much of the four Gospels are direct quote from Jesus. The rest was written by man's remembrance of what happened, but through divine guidance from the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as a believer, I do take what is written in the Bible as the "inspired word of God".
I, nor any other Christian, can say or do any thing that will "cause" any one to become a Christian. Only God can do that for the willing. We are just charged with telling as many people as we can of the saving grace of Jesus. What a person does with that knowledge is between them and God.
 
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#60
#60
T-TownVol said:
I believe that man will be judged as to the amount of "light" that they have been exposed to. The Bible tells us that full time pastors/teachers of the Bible will be judged at a different level.
So, to answer your question, yes.
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I repect your knowledge of the Bible and your ability
in explaining your understanding of it.

Can you please go into more detail on the different levels of judgement ?
 
#61
#61
The Bible is very clear, to me any way, that no man is excluded from acknowledging God as the creator and therefore to be respected. (Romans 1 18-20)
The person that is never taught about the saving grace of God through Jesus can not be held to the same standard that the person that has heard the Gospel and choses to not believe.
As for the Elders/teachers/leaders of the local church being held to higher standard. That is from James 3:1-2. The context is James warning the early Christian who wanted to speak/teach at the synagogue that they would receive greater scrutiny from God. This is atill true today.
So, with that evidence, direct from scripture, and throw in the matter of infant and mental incapacity deaths I do not see how there can not be different "levels" of judgement as to the levels of exposure/leadership one has.
 
#62
#62
Im not intentionally being a jerk, what exactly is the point of the great commission if your thought process is true?
 
#63
#63
According to the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptists, there are 3,400 identified people groups around the world that have not been reached with the Gospel. I am speaking of those people and to when they die and face the judgement that "every man" faces.
It is 100% our responsibility to try and reach those that have not heard the "good news" of Christ. God wants every man to hear and make their own decision. The Southern Baptist convention challenged its members to pick one of those unreached tribes and get someone there with in the next few months. Our church is sending people to two of the tribes this summer.
I do not think that my thoughts about the levels of judgement contridict the Great Commision in any way. Are you referring to the "why tell them about Jesus if it might cause them to go to hell" argument?
 
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#66
#66
T-TownVol said:
That also explains it well. Romans actually speaks to salvation when it says that they have "no excuse" for not believing in God even though they "do not have the law".
People keep going back to the "accept Jesus" line, they are not taking into account that God and Jesus are one in the trinity.
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Says you.
 
#68
#68
T-TownVol said:
typed me........says Bible......nice bait though
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But that previous statements completely discounts Judaism. Jews don't believe in the trinity, yet they believe in heaven through submission to God.

Hell, we've discounted Jews completely in this context.
 
#69
#69
Jews are subject to the new law just like every other person is now. They are God's chosen people. I can not tell you why the Jews ignore the Trinity. I am not that familiar to their teachings so I can not comment with personal knowledge.
The Bible is very clear that just being born a Jew, since the death of Jesus, will not get them in Heaven. Every man that hears the Gospel must accept to receive salvation.
I know that some on VN do not believe the Bible is true or the word of God, but I do and that is where my comments come from and my limited ability to relate it verbally.
 
#70
#70
T-TownVol said:
Jews are subject to the new law just like every other person is now. They are God's chosen people. I can not tell you why the Jews ignore the Trinity. I am not that familiar to their teachings so I can not comment with personal knowledge.
The Bible is very clear that just being born a Jew, since the death of Jesus, will not get them in Heaven. Every man that hears the Gospel must accept to receive salvation.
I know that some on VN do not believe the Bible is true or the word of God, but I do and that is where my comments come from and my limited ability to relate it verbally.
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I have a few Jewish friends... do you have any idea how bad their families would flip on them if they converted to Christianity?

I don't know... it just doesn't seem fair to be condemned to hell because you didn't take the initiative to go against everything you've been raised to believe rather than be judged based on who you are as a person (moral fiber).

We may have discussed this before, but I'd still like to hear your take on this :hi:
 
#71
#71
DinkinFlicka said:
I have a few Jewish friends... do you have any idea how bad their families would flip on them if they converted to Christianity?

I don't know... it just doesn't seem fair to be condemned to hell because you didn't take the initiative to go against everything you've been raised to believe rather than be judged based on who you are as a person (moral fiber).

We may have discussed this before, but I'd still like to hear your take on this :hi:
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Jesus said it himself in John 3:5 - also Hebrews 5:9 clearly states Jesus is the author of salvation for all that obey him.
I can relate to the "going against family" thing. My wife, kids and I are the only members of either side of our families that do not attend what they think is the "correct demonination". We left that demonination when we were in our 30's. My wife's mom did not speak to her for over a year when we left that church. If you pinned any of them downa nd asked them to truthfull give their opinion if My family will be in heaven, they would say no. Heck they have told us so. They consider that we have left "the Church". It is truly hard to follow Christ. I can attest first hand.
 
#72
#72
Every man is born with "moral fiber" and that is a good thing. But, according to the Bible, that is not enough as "all have sinned and fall short". Also states that good deeds are not enough for those that have heard the Gospel. We can only receive salvation through the grace of God and our risen savior. Or so the Bible says, if you chose to believe what is written there. Not my opinion at all, the words of the Bible.
 
#73
#73
In Matthew chapter 16, Jesus tells the Jews that they must accept him/the new law to gain salvation.
This discussion goes back to my point that "religion", even of the Jews, is man made. Their laws are much of what Christ rejects in his teachings.

Heck, Jesus was born a Jew and, one would think that he wanted for all Jews to be saved. But he did not "give them a pass" just because they were born a Jew.
 
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#75
#75
DinkinFlicka said:
I have a few Jewish friends... do you have any idea how bad their families would flip on them if they converted to Christianity?

I don't know... it just doesn't seem fair to be condemned to hell because you didn't take the initiative to go against everything you've been raised to believe rather than be judged based on who you are as a person (moral fiber).

We may have discussed this before, but I'd still like to hear your take on this :hi:
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I generally think of it using a life preserver analogy.

God does not want people to go to hell. He wants them in heaven. For some reason that I don't understand, sin is abhorrent to God. He can't abide to be with it. He offers people a chance to go and be with him. The only way to do it, however, is to rid yourself of sin. He has given us a way to do that. We can choose to accept it, be clean and go to heaven, or not. God doesn't so much condemn people to hell as allow them to choose it. He throws us a life preserver when we are drowning. If we choose to grab it, then God will reel us in. If we choose not to, then we drown.
 
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