Mormon Proxy Baptisms

#104
#104
orangeslice13 said:
Explain please
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I believe in predestination and that God chooses who will and who won't go to heaven. It began several years ago when I first heard about Romans 8:29. John 3:16 is one of several verses in scripture that seemed to go against the predestination belief, but i've learned that it does not.

I will try to find some notes that dig deeper into this verse, and I will get back to you.

Have you ever done any predestination vs. free will research?
 
#105
#105
mtt2d said:
I believe in predestination and that God chooses who will and who won't go to heaven. It began several years ago when I first heard about Romans 8:29. John 3:16 is one of several verses in scripture that seemed to go against the predestination belief, but i've learned that it does not.

I will try to find some notes that dig deeper into this verse, and I will get back to you.

Have you ever done any predestination vs. free will research?
Click to expand...

All the time. Not in theology, but in philosophy and especially theoretical physics. It is normally framed as determinism vs. free will.
 
#106
#106
If predestination is true, then how can there be free will?
by Matt Slick

Email: If predestination is true, then how can there be free will?

Response: In order to answer the question, we must first define our terms. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary. Predestination is, "The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass. It is used particularly in theology to denote the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery." Does this mean that since God predestines that people cannot make choices?

Free will is the ability to make choices according to your desire. Free will is of two theological viewpoints: Compatibilist and Libertarian. Compatibilism is the position that a person is only as free as his nature permits him to be free and that his sinfulness prevents him from freely choosing God (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20). Libertarian free will is the position that an unsaved sinner is still able to freely choose God in spite of his sinful nature (John 3:16; 3:36).

God's predestination does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God predestines in and through our choices because God is all knowing and all powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known. But his knowing doesn't mean you don't freely choose.

An illustration would be that I could arrange for my child to choose ice cream over something else and not violate his free will. For instance, I could put a bowl of chocolate ice cream and a bowl of dirt and rocks in front of my child and I know exactly which one the child will choose to eat. But my knowing does not violate my child's free will.
 
#107
#107
mtt2d said:
I believe in predestination and that God chooses who will and who won't go to heaven. It began several years ago when I first heard about Romans 8:29. John 3:16 is one of several verses in scripture that seemed to go against the predestination belief, but i've learned that it does not.

I will try to find some notes that dig deeper into this verse, and I will get back to you.

Have you ever done any predestination vs. free will research?
Click to expand...

I thought that was where you were going and yes I have.
I'm kinda split on the issue.
I feel the calling is predestined but free will to reject or receive is intact.
 
#108
#108
orangeslice13 said:
I thought that was where you were going and yes I have.
I'm kinda split on the issue.
I feel the calling is predestined but free will to reject or receive is intact.
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Ok. No need to explain it then? It's not like Jesus is going to come and hit you upside the head if I did. :)
 
#110
#110
T-TownVol said:
An illustration would be that I could arrange for my child to choose ice cream over something else and not violate his free will. For instance, I could put a bowl of chocolate ice cream and a bowl of dirt and rocks in front of my child and I know exactly which one the child will choose to eat. But my knowing does not violate my child's free will.
Click to expand...

There are strong arguments out there that point to the opposite conclusion.
 
#112
#112
T-TownVol said:
If predestination is true, then how can there be free will?
by Matt Slick

Email: If predestination is true, then how can there be free will?

Response: In order to answer the question, we must first define our terms. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary. Predestination is, "The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass. It is used particularly in theology to denote the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery." Does this mean that since God predestines that people cannot make choices?

Free will is the ability to make choices according to your desire. Free will is of two theological viewpoints: Compatibilist and Libertarian. Compatibilism is the position that a person is only as free as his nature permits him to be free and that his sinfulness prevents him from freely choosing God (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20). Libertarian free will is the position that an unsaved sinner is still able to freely choose God in spite of his sinful nature (John 3:16; 3:36).

God's predestination does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God predestines in and through our choices because God is all knowing and all powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known. But his knowing doesn't mean you don't freely choose.

An illustration would be that I could arrange for my child to choose ice cream over something else and not violate his free will. For instance, I could put a bowl of chocolate ice cream and a bowl of dirt and rocks in front of my child and I know exactly which one the child will choose to eat. But my knowing does not violate my child's free will.
Click to expand...

I believe God created Adam and Eve and then placed a tree in the garden that they could not resist. God then arranged all of the events following that first sin, to Jesus's crucifiction and is even arranging the events today. Jesus is alive and will continue to convert his predestined elect people until he returns.
 
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#113
#113
mtt2d said:
I believe God created Adam and Eve and then placed a tree in the garden that they could not resist. God then arranged all of the events following that first sin, to Jesus's crucifiction. Today, Jesus is alive and will continue to convert his predestined elect people until he returns.
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No choice, some sort of game?

Experiment?
 
#115
#115
mtt2d said:
I believe God created Adam and Eve and then placed a tree in the garden that they could not resist. God then arranged all of the events following that first sin, to Jesus's crucifiction and even the events today. Jesus is alive and will continue to convert his predestined elect people until he returns.
Click to expand...

Are you a Mormon?
 
#116
#116
mtt2d said:
I believe God created Adam and Eve and then placed a tree in the garden that they could not resist. God then arranged all of the events following that first sin, to Jesus's crucifiction and even the events today. Jesus is alive and will continue to convert his predestined elect people until he returns.
Click to expand...

Whoa. There is a big difference between predestination knowledge and actually planning/implementing predestination. Are you sure you meant to word it that way?
 
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