NCAA = Slavery You can't make this stuff up

#176
#176
I’m happy that Wendell Carter won his freedom. I hope the horrors he was exposed to during his enslavement don’t haunt him the rest of his life
 
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#177
#177
bamawriter said:
The problem with this argument is that, right or wrong, it's within this context (college/student life) that a multi-billion dollar enterprise has been constructed.
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Again, that’s no different than any Fortune 500 Company. Unless you are at the helm, most likely you are working to make someone else rich.
 
#178
#178
FleeceItOut said:
Again, that’s no different than any Fortune 500 Company. Unless you are at the helm, most likely you are working to make someone else rich.
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We've covered it. It's a bad metaphor.

That someone makes more money than another doesn't make the situation unfair or unreasonable. No one is saying that players should get make as much as coaches or administrators.
 
#179
#179
TUSKtimes said:
How people fall in love with the idea that college students should be equal to employees of cooperate America is amazing. The vast majority of students getting an education don't believe it and as they continue to live out their more carefree years driving around campus on their parent's dime seldom conduct themselves as the entrepreneurs' they are someday thriving to be.

Which brings us to the athletes driving around campus on the university's dime. One sportswriter, obviously advocating his personal cause of social justice, recently argued that the difference between what the head football coach was driving was a world apart from the cars these players were parking on campus.

A college football coach who probably had to wait until his mid 40's, at the earliest, to get a HC job at a major football school and even then had to prove his worth by being a part of winning football for multiple seasons. My first thought was, what was this guy driving when he was playing college football and driving around campus as a student?

These comparisons being made between student life and the games they play and cooperate America are about as bogus as it can get.
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I totally agree with everything you just wrote, but I still think that kids should be allowed to sell their likeness.

People advocating that athletes should get paid overstate their argument all the time. Arian Foster has said that it was unfair that Phil Fulmer got to roll up to practice in a Lexus, meanwhile he and his teammates "couldn't eat." That's a poor argument, but it doesn't mean he's totally off base. though.
 
#180
#180
bamawriter said:
We've covered it. It's a bad metaphor.

That someone makes more money than another doesn't make the situation unfair or unreasonable. No one is saying that players should get make as much as coaches or administrators.
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The only thing they should get is the ability to profit off their likeness.
 
#181
#181
05_never_again said:
I totally agree with everything you just wrote, but I still think that kids should be allowed to sell their likeness.

People advocating that athletes should get paid overstate their argument all the time. Arian Foster has said that it was unfair that Phil Fulmer got to roll up to practice in a Lexus, meanwhile he and his teammates "couldn't eat." That's a poor argument, but it doesn't mean he's totally off base. though.
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I don’t buy that they couldn’t eat.
 
#183
#183
05_never_again said:
I totally agree with everything you just wrote, but I still think that kids should be allowed to sell their likeness.

People advocating that athletes should get paid overstate their argument all the time. Arian Foster has said that it was unfair that Phil Fulmer got to roll up to practice in a Lexus, meanwhile he and his teammates "couldn't eat." That's a poor argument, but it doesn't mean he's totally off base. though.
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You've seen pictures of your athletic facilities. You read about the constant perks these kids are getting. Not sure what your football players are eating but our offensive and defensive linemen look well nourished to me. The main point is that the economic investment in student athletes are obviously there. My goodness, in the SEC alone, it's an arms race all designed to catch the recruits attention with perk after unbelievable perk. I don't expect that investment to slow down, do you?

So why aren't intelligent people discussing player investment in that spirit? I haven't heard too much that makes sense across the board and at the same time keeps agents and NCAA sanctions out of the equation.

Increased University wealth can easily transfer to increased University Stipend. Uniformed and most of all, out in the open.
 
#185
#185
n_huffhines said:
We're talking about whether or not we've arrived at the best "system". Then I guess he was saying "college ball" and "universities" are the system, which I'm not sure what that means. Now you are saying they can leave the NCAA (which I consider to be the system), which I agree with, but don't get how it pertains.
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If TPTB at the power 5 conferences decided that they wanted some form of pay for play in football and the NCAA balks at the idea they can withdraw from the NCAA and form their own governing body. That's an option that's available.
 
#186
#186
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
If TPTB at the power 5 conferences decided that they wanted some form of pay for play in football and the NCAA balks at the idea they can withdraw from the NCAA and form their own governing body. That's an option that's available.
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The NCAA isn't some kind of separate institution that governs the schools. It is the schools, themselves. If the Power 5 decide they want pay-for-play, it will happen. They don't, so it won't.
 
#188
#188
TUSKtimes said:
You've seen pictures of your athletic facilities. You read about the constant perks these kids are getting. Not sure what your football players are eating but our offensive and defensive linemen look well nourished to me. The main point is that the economic investment in student athletes are obviously there. My goodness, in the SEC alone, it's an arms race all designed to catch the recruits attention with perk after unbelievable perk. I don't expect that investment to slow down, do you?

So why aren't intelligent people discussing player investment in that spirit? I haven't heard too much that makes sense across the board and at the same time keeps agents and NCAA sanctions out of the equation.

Increased University wealth can easily transfer to increased University Stipend. Uniformed and most of all, out in the open.
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Yes, there is a lot of investment made in student-athletes. I've said previously in the thread that athletes in the non-revenue producing sports and marginal to average athletes in the revenue producing sports are getting a great deal.

It is the superstar athletes (think Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, etc.) that are unique cases. IMO, it is really easy to make an argument that the superstars are not adequately compensated via a scholarship/room and board, facilities, and the associated perks.

I think a way to remedy it is to allow all of them to profit off their likeness.
 
#190
#190
So does anyone actually have any realistic solutions to what they view as problems?
Here are my ideas...

College basketball:
1) allow players to leave directly out of high school
2) If players decide to come to school they're bound to be in attendance for 2 fall semesters and 2 spring semesters before being able to make themselves available for the NBA.
3) players are allowed to capitalize off of their likeness through signing memorabilia, but all
Deals must be made through the SID office and approved by the school's compliance office.
4) SA's can also participate in local Tv, radio, internet advertising spots such as car dealerships, local restaurants, lodging, banks etc.and receive compensation that will have the same capped amount for each SA in the NCAA. It wouldn't matter if you're the Heisman trophy winner from OU or the best player on the women's soccer team at UNC, if a business wants to offer you $15k and that's the max $#to do a 30 second spot that will air x number of times that's what you get.
Each and every player gets compensated a certain amount of money for every autograph session that is required by the school. Example, meeting the teams before the season starts and players have to take photos, sign media guides, etc. every single sport, no matter if 3 people show up to rowing or 20,000 show up to football.

College Football:

1) First of all you guys comparing football to other sports is like comparing apples to oranges . It's not the same at all. It is more physically and mentally demanding than any other sport, it takes many more players to field a team than any other sport, it takes more resources, coaches, staff, etc to run a tight ship, which is nearly impossible. Very few players, if any are capable of going from high school to the NFL. Some of you want a minor league system for football? Why? With just a 2 deep of the ESPN TOP 300 recruits you could barely field 6 teams. There are 6 teams alone in the SEC where you would have better coaching, competition, personal branding and the ability to showcase yourself on a huge stage. Not to mention an education, not to mention life skills like socializing and dating and not living in some dip **** town playing football 24/7. Why would you want every 4 and 5 star playing minor league football? Because you care about the kids? That's right. Bring a bunch of 17-18 yo kids and teach nothing but football and see how that works out going forward. The good news is Manning's records will never be broken with a brand new Joey Matthews or AJ Suggs being brought in every year. Barnett's record will be safe. Maybe we can recruit a real speed guy like Nick Reveiz to play OLB. Is there another Rogers brother we can lineup outside ?

2) keep the 3 year in place, 2 years at minimum.
3) Set up an account for them post football
4) see #'s 3&4 above.

Is it perfect? No way, but it's a start. The players can still get compensated in some fashion.
 
#191
#191
05_never_again said:
Yes, there is a lot of investment made in student-athletes. I've said previously in the thread that athletes in the non-revenue producing sports and marginal to average athletes in the revenue producing sports are getting a great deal.

It is the superstar athletes (think Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, etc.) that are unique cases. IMO, it is really easy to make an argument that the superstars are not adequately compensated via a scholarship/room and board, facilities, and the associated perks.

I think a way to remedy it is to allow all of them to profit off their likeness.
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Cam Newton and Johnny Football were multimillionaires before they ever signed a pro contract. They sold their likeness to multiple sponsors before the draft. In Cam's case, he was thrown out of his first school of choice and enrolled in a junior college. No one had any idea he was Superman until about halfway through his one season. That means his legitimate likeness, through actual accomplishment and fandom, was probably not worth much until the end of the season. 4 months after the season the NFL and sponsors are throwing millions at him. These are indeed the type of guys that will be successful in what you are describing if their likeness is based on accomplishment. They represent at best 1% of your entire team. And I'm being kind here.


Most of all, how do you propose to control the under-the-table cash that can easily be associated with this likeness not based on accomplishments on the field? And please go ahead and begin this with their recruitment.
 
#192
#192
05_never_again said:
Don't juice bar me bro.
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I wouldn't do that. As the article stated, Bama's got one of those and they have a nutrition bar that is tailored to every football players needs and position. And don't get me started on that new barbershop. Nope, our guys won't be out picketing for a union anytime soon.
 
#193
#193
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
If TPTB at the power 5 conferences decided that they wanted some form of pay for play in football and the NCAA balks at the idea they can withdraw from the NCAA and form their own governing body. That's an option that's available.
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For sure, I just have no idea why schools would decide that that they want to pay people.
 
#194
#194
TUSKtimes said:
Cam Newton and Johnny Football were multimillionaires before they ever signed a pro contract. They sold their likeness to multiple sponsors before the draft. In Cam's case, he was thrown out of his first school of choice and enrolled in a junior college. No one had any idea he was Superman until about halfway through his one season. That means his legitimate likeness, through actual accomplishment and fandom, was probably not worth much until the end of the season. 4 months after the season the NFL and sponsors are throwing millions at him. These are indeed the type of guys that will be successful in what you are describing if their likeness is based on accomplishment. They represent at best 1% of your entire team. And I'm being kind here.


Most of all, how do you propose to control the under-the-table cash that can easily be associated with this likeness not based on accomplishments on the field? And please go ahead and begin this with their recruitment.
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Who are you to determine what Newton's likeness was worth at a particular point in the season? Shouldn't a market determine that? I'm sure Auburn sold a ton of #2 jerseys that year during the season. Did Cam see any of that money? Does Cam see any of the money if a Auburn #2 jersey is sold today?

Manziel was at A&M for 2 years during a time of unprecedented fundraising, which he undoubtedly had something to do with. I'm not saying at all that he should have made millions, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. He was largely able to become the figure that he became because he wore Texas A&M's jersey. He already got room and board for 2 years, which for an in-state student is worth about $55k. But was he fairly compensated though? I'm not sure he was.

There is no way to control under the table cash in college athletics. None. That doesn't mean that the existing system shouldn't be tweaked though.
 
#195
#195
05_never_again said:
Who are you to determine what Newton's likeness was worth at a particular point in the season? Shouldn't a market determine that? I'm sure Auburn sold a ton of #2 jerseys that year during the season. Did Cam see any of that money? Does Cam see any of the money if a Auburn #2 jersey is sold today?

Manziel was at A&M for 2 years during a time of unprecedented fundraising, which he undoubtedly had something to do with. I'm not saying at all that he should have made millions, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. He was largely able to become the figure that he became because he wore Texas A&M's jersey. He already got room and board for 2 years, which for an in-state student is worth about $55k. But was he fairly compensated though? I'm not sure he was.

There is no way to control under the table cash in college athletics. None. That doesn't mean that the existing system shouldn't be tweaked though.
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And there's no way to keep agents out of what you are proposing. And it will start with high schoolers.

And don't forget the onetime cash settlement of $180,000 to the Newton family. That should have kept him from starving to death until those 9 horrible months of tyranny playing football and winning a NC, a Heisman were over with.
 
#196
#196
TUSKtimes said:
And there's no way to keep agents out of what you are proposing. And it will start with high schoolers.

And don't forget the onetime cash settlement of $180,000 to the Newton family. That should have kept him from starving to death until those 9 horrible months of tyranny playing football and winning a NC, a Heisman were over with.
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Agents have infiltrated college sports already; it's not like that will change.

Also, don't lump me in with the hyperbolic crowd that talks about college sports as slavery, tyrannical, or extremely exploitative. The system is generous to all college athletes, especially the ones in non-revenue producing sports and the run-of-the-mill players in the revenue producing ones (in other words, about 98% of all student-athletes). If those kids don't see the value of free tuition/room and board, the use of facilities in their chosen sport, and the other associated perks, and get mad because their (professional) coach has a nice car, then that is their own ignorance.

Superstar college athletes are a unique case though, and some of the other rules are just silly (like the kicker who had his YouTube channel shut down because he was monetizing videos about his day-to-day life as a student-athlete).
 
#197
#197
bamawriter said:
Sure they can.



I'm unfamiliar with the event, but was it a part of your coursework? There is a difference between a product that you created as part of your coursework and the exploitation of your name and likeness. In the real world, if you create a product for an employer, it belongs to your employer because it's work-for-hire. If you leave, the employer can still exploit your work because you did it for them, but they can't continue to slap your face on it.



I think we can agree that the 75k number doesn't actually reflect what it costs to educate, house, and feed a player for a year. But let's assume that a school only breaks even on the cost of attendance:

75k x 85 scholarship players is 6,375,000 per year. UT football made more than 120 million last year (and the schools don't include the 40 million plus in media rights in the football number, since the rights technically cover all sports). That's a hair over 5%. Even if you add in staff salaries, equipment, facilities, etc it's not even close to a break-even proposition for the school.




The entry-level worker at least had a choice. He could seek employment at a company without the requirement. There is no such choice for college athletes.
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it was an international competition that we could sign up for as an elective. it was up to us, the students, to come up with a zero energy house. We created several new ideas, to the point that ORNL approached us wanting to help out. eventually went to DC to compete as one of the finalist. I think we got 8th overall.

to the money issue, it goes back to what do you think their fair market value is? 450k for the NFL, I would say college kids is fairly less, talent, experience, especially given the college team is about twice as big as an NFL team, plus so many more teams.

college athlete could choose not to play sports. no one is making him. its his choice. the way it works has been that way for a while, so its not like he doesn't know what he is facing. like lawyers going to the ABA, architects with the AIA, not sure if its only one system for doctors or other licensed individuals but it isn't uncommon for their to be a fixed path forward.
 
#198
#198
05_never_again said:
Agents have infiltrated college sports already; it's not like that will change.

Also, don't lump me in with the hyperbolic crowd that talks about college sports as slavery, tyrannical, or extremely exploitative. The system is generous to all college athletes, especially the ones in non-revenue producing sports and the run-of-the-mill players in the revenue producing ones (in other words, about 98% of all student-athletes). If those kids don't see the value of free tuition/room and board, the use of facilities in their chosen sport, and the other associated perks, and get mad because their (professional) coach has a nice car, then that is their own ignorance.
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As relative as it may all be there is still accountability now. I don't believe we are at the corruption level of these sneaker agents corrupting coaches, parents, and players through AAU basketball. It would be nice to not get there in football and your philosophy wouldn't make me hopeful.

You explained earlier where you stood on this issue. I'm merely speaking about the problems in general and the way a lot of folks think about this issue.

Cam Newton and the level of corruptness he represents on his own is a snapshot of the way players, families and their agents will manipulate the system without a clear set of regulations. I'm not ready for that.
 
#199
#199
LouderVol said:
to the money issue, it goes back to what do you think their fair market value is? 450k for the NFL, I would say college kids is fairly less, talent, experience, especially given the college team is about twice as big as an NFL team, plus so many more teams.
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Like I've said, I'm actually fine with leaving the "compensation" as is assuming they lift restrictions on the player being able to use his own name and likeness. That obviously won't create "equal" pay for all athletes, but it's at least "fair."

college athlete could choose not to play sports. no one is making him. its his choice. the way it works has been that way for a while, so its not like he doesn't know what he is facing. like lawyers going to the ABA, architects with the AIA, not sure if its only one system for doctors or other licensed individuals but it isn't uncommon for their to be a fixed path forward.
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If schools were to create advanced degrees in football, and such a degree were required to play professionally, then it would be an apt comparison to the professions you mentioned.

I'm not even fundamentally opposed to the idea, as it would at least reflect reality for many "student"-athletes.
 
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