New Orleans Attack

[Fun coupon VOL]

The same reason that most people struggle to follow their religion's instruction.

Inbred?

 

[kiddiedoc]

Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"

Surah 2:191: "And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

Surah 9:5: "Then kill the Pagans wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush …"

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

 

[Vol737]

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

Seems peaceful enough….

 

[n_huffhines]

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

Yeah, your misrepresentation of their scriptures is really going to help. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just copied and pasted this, and don't understand what an absolute hatchet job this is, but the person orignally doing it is a giant POS...not you, unless you are the one doing it. Not one of these verses endorses indiscriminate violence against non-believers.

 

[UTFanForLife]

Yeah, your misrepresentation of their scriptures is really going to help. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just copied and pasted this, and don't understand what an absolute hatchet job this is, but the person orignally doing it is a giant POS...not you, unless you are the one doing it. Not one of these verses endorses indiscriminate violence against non-believers.

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This is assuming everyone interprets the same, even those who follow Islam.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

The same reason that most people struggle to follow their religion's instruction.

Agreed. So then why are we worried about the religion again since most people don't follow it? Why not concern yourself with the type of person who would take literal instructions from a book written 1400 years ago by people who thought the earth was flat? Cause if you ask me only the mentally unstable take ANY religion absolutely seriously. Even Christianity is pretty insane which is why most reasonable Christians ignore most of their religion. Just look at the Old Testament. It's so loony Christians today largely disavow it and prefer to just stick with the New Testament. Which makes no sense because according to Christian ideology Jesus wasn't just the Son but also the Father. So the Old Testament was directed by Jesus. So when God commanded the Hebrews to do all those heinous acts in the Old Testament that Jesus telling them to do that. Jesus commanding the Hebrews to commit genocide makes the Quran look like a nursery rhyme book.

For the record, I'm not here to defend Islam. On paper it's a ridiculous religion (like every other religion). I've actually read the entire Quran and you're right that if Muslims actually followed their religion to the tee they would be engaging in Holy War against non-believers because the Quran explicitly instructs them to do that. But thankfully for us most people don't actually follow what their holy books say. Most normal people follow religion because it gives them comfort and purpose. So instead of engaging in racist stereotypes of Muslims as being evil blood thirsty terrorists. Just realize they're just like you the average Christian. They follow their religion because they want to get to heaven and live a life with meaning. They generally ignore the crazy stuff and stick with the good stuff about prayer, charity, and being good decent people. It's the people who are already depressed and mentally unstable that use to violent parts of the religion to hurt people. These people who have committed those violent acts regardless. Religion just becomes the tool. Just like good decent people would not commit murder even if wasn't outlawed by the Bible or Quran. Good people don't need religion to tell them to be good. Similarly bad people didn't need religion to tell them to be bad.

 

[Ritzwatch]

Yeah, your misrepresentation of their scriptures is really going to help. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just copied and pasted this, and don't understand what an absolute hatchet job this is, but the person orignally doing it is a giant POS...not you, unless you are the one doing it. Not one of these verses endorses indiscriminate violence against non-believers.

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I think the adherents’ interpretation is more important than the AI interpretation.

There can be no doubt that those who profess to follow the Quran while also killing non-believers think the Quran calls for killing the infidel.

At that point, it does not matter what the correct interpretation.

 

[n_huffhines]

This is assuming everyone interprets the same, even those who follow Islam.

Yeah, if you read a weird translation without any context, you might have a bad interpretation.

Marcus said it says "kill the infidels" several times "in no uncertain terms" when there is no acceptable interpretation that could validate that. We have scriptures about killing non-believers that they are already at war with. That is what's happening in these verses.

 

[n_huffhines]

I think the adherents’ interpretation is more important than the AI interpretation.

There can be no doubt that those who profess to follow the Quran while also killing non-believers think the Quran calls for killing the infidel.

At that point, it does not matter what the correct interpretation.

Yeah, and I think some Christian crazies could figure out a way to get Biblical justification for retaliating against their oppressors if we were in the same situation.

No good Muslim could use these scriptures to justify murdering innocents in cold blood....but if American $ and weapons are killing their family, loved ones, and fellow believers....we're in different territory now. The Quran does justify violence against oppressors, just like the Bible does.

 

[EasternVol]

Don't be mad at me that you can't refute anything. Be mad at yourself. Improve.

Who's mad? You're amusing.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

Context matters. Those chapters of the Quran were revealed during war times. Muhammad and the early Muslims were not aggressive at the start. However, they were persecuted (not too differently from early Christians) by the pagans in Mecca. So Muhammad and his followers fled to another city called Yathrib at the time (now Medina the second holiest city of Islam). At Yathrib they lived in peace until the pagans from Mecca decided to attack them to finish them off for good. It was in response to these wars of aggression by the pagans of Mecca that these verses of the Quran were revealed. Before these verses were revealed Muhammad preached a message of absolute non-violence very similar to Jesus. In Mecca Muslims were not allowed to fight back even if they were attacked. Muhammad thought after leaving Mecca the pagans would leave him and his followers alone. When they didn't and started to attack the city of Medina the Muslims had no choice but to defend themselves. It's in this context those verses were revealed. They were telling the Muslims that they could finally fight back.

Here's the question you need to ask yourself if you think these verses are directing Muslims to engage in wars of aggression against non-Muslims. First, why are there still Jews and Christians TO THIS DAY in Muslim majority countries throughout the middle east? Secondly, why are there other verses in the Quran calling Jews and Christians "people of the book" and giving them rights and protections in an Islamic state if they're supposed to be killed? And finally, why were there Jews and Christians living in Mecca and Medina free to practice their religion during the time Muhammad and the Muslims took over the region?

This is why its important to understand history and how it connects to verses in religious books. Because if your argument here was true that Muslims are directed to kill unbelievers then Muhammad in his time was doing a bad job of following his own words cause he let Jews and Christians freely practice their religion in lands controlled by Muslims when his forces took over the region.

 

[Ritzwatch]

Yeah, and I think some Christian crazies could figure out a way to get Biblical justification for retaliating against their oppressors if we were in the same situation.

No doubt, some would, and some do. Agreed that major world religions have “followers” that dramatically misconstrue or misunderstand the teachings of their faith, often to the detriment or persecution of non-believers.

No good Muslim could use these scriptures to justify murdering innocents in cold blood....but if American $ and weapons are killing their family, loved ones, and fellow believers....we're in different territory now. The Quran does justify violence against oppressors, just like the Bible does.

I can not speak with authority on what a good Muslim would do, or how the Quran instructs adherents to respond to oppression, but I do not believe the Bible justifies violence against oppressors.

Nothing was more oppressive than crucifixion, but the Prince of Peace submitted to that undignified, torturous death rather than calling down Angel armies to cast off the yoke of His oppressors. Hard for me to see that as an endorsement of violence.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

This is assuming everyone interprets the same, even those who follow Islam.

Anyone who has studied Islam, the Quran, and the history of Arabia at that time comes to the same reading of those verses. They were all revealed during times of war and were in relation to those battles. If they were instructions for how Muslims should behave at all times then it wouldn't make sense why there are still Christians and Jews in Muslim majority countries in the middle east to this day. Shouldn't they have been killed off millenia ago?

If you want to know how terrorists justify their acts they do use these verses. But they're argument is we're at war again. Not that Muslims are justified in attacking innocent people just because they don't share their faith. Even Osama Bin Laden cited U.S. foreign policy and our military bases in Saudi Arabia as to why he attacked America on 9/11. He didn't say he attacked America just because we're not Muslims. He said it was because we've been attacking them. That's the argument Islamic terrorists make to justify their actions. They don't say we're killing Christians and Jews just because they're Christians and Jews. The Quran EXPLICITLY outlaws that. Their argument is the Jews and Christians are killing our people and we're justified through these verses to defend ourselves and our people by any means. Now you can disagree with them on the point of who is actually the aggressor. But from the Islamic perspective you can only engage in violence as a defensive measure not as an offensive measure to engage in ethnic cleansing.

 

[just bob]

Who's mad? You're amusing.

Ha! You're not good at this.

 

[just bob]

This is hysterical. We have a bunch of non-Muslims pathetically defending Islam against other non-Muslims who accurately point out yet ANOTHER Islamic terrorist attack.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I think the adherents’ interpretation is more important than the AI interpretation.

There can be no doubt that those who profess to follow the Quran while also killing non-believers think the Quran calls for killing the infidel.

At that point, it does not matter what the correct interpretation.

This is false. Even terrorists don't think you can kill people for non-belief. And by terrorist I mean the leaders and not the ignorant rank and file. Ignorant people believe a lot of false things. But the intellectual leaders of Islamic terrorism don't argue you can just kill Christians and Jews cause they're non-believers or infidels. Why? Because the Quran EXPLICITLY outlaws that.

Christians and Jews are referred to as "people of the book" in the Quran. And the Quran explicitly says Allah will keep his covenant with them so long as they follow his words in the Gospel and Torah. The Quran actually cosigns Christianity and Judaism as originally being from Allah. But that people drifted away from the original versions of those religions. The Quran also explicitly offers Jews and Christians protections in an Islamic state to freely practice their religion so long as they pay a largely symbolic tax called the "jizyah". So its impossible for anyone who reads the Quran to intellectually argue for the killing of innocent Jews and Christians simply because they are not Muslim.

The argument the terrorists make is this. They argue they're not engaging in wars of aggression but are rather defending themselves and their people from Christian and Jewish aggression. They cite U.S. foreign policy and the treatment of Palestinians by the Jewish state as their justification in attacking America and Israel. Even Osama Bin Laden cited US foreign policy as the reason for 9/11. Nothing in the Quran justifies killing innocent people. The terrorists justify killing American and Israeli citizens in the same way our military justifies dropping bombs on buildings with innocent people and terrorists (i.e. collateral damage). Terrorism is their version of fighting back. Not them trying to attack us simply because we don't believe in their God.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

Yeah it's quite clear about those points, and several other things I find reprehensible pertaining to women, children, lying, etc etc.

 

[Ritzwatch]

This is false. Even terrorists don't think you can kill people for non-belief. And by terrorist I mean the leaders and not the ignorant rank and file. Ignorant people believe a lot of false things.

This is an interesting response with which I will respectfully disagree. Defining a group of people (terrorists that don’t think you kill based on unbelief) by excluding people from the group who do believe that “thing” (the “ignorant rank and file”) seems like stacking the deck in favor of your argument.

Again, I am not speaking to Islam, or the Quran. I don’t need to. The fact is, there are many Muslims who believe killing the infidel is the will of the Almighty. This has been true my whole life, from Iran hostages in 1979 through the events in New Orleans.

You may be 100% correct, that those who hold this interpretation of the Quran are mistaken, and that those who believe this are ignorant followers who do not understand the “true” nature of their religion; again, it matters not, so long as those people commit their killings in the name of their religion.

I also do not think it is accurate to re-characterize terrorist attacks as being solely motivated by secular retribution to oppression entirely separate from religious justification, however misguided or misunderstood that expression might be. It may be human nature to believe “God is on our side,” but that is the point: Islam calls for peace through strength and resultant submission to that show of strength; that type of “peace” takes a certain amount of moral confidence to enforce.

Many, if not most terrorists invoke their diety when “resisting oppression.” I’d say that it is fair to conclude they do so because they believe that is what the diety wants from them and that they are being faithful and obedient by their response. Whether born out of scholarship or ignorance, that is a fact that cannot be ignored or denied.

 

[C-south]

This might help those not familiar with the Quran

You forgot financial issues

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The argument the terrorists make is this. They argue they're not engaging in wars of aggression but are rather defending themselves and their people from Christian and Jewish aggression. They cite U.S. foreign policy and the treatment of Palestinians by the Jewish state as their justification in attacking America and Israel. Even Osama Bin Laden cited US foreign policy as the reason for 9/11. Nothing in the Quran justifies killing innocent people. The terrorists justify killing American and Israeli citizens in the same way our military justifies dropping bombs on buildings with innocent people and terrorists (i.e. collateral damage). Terrorism is their version of fighting back. Not them trying to attack us simply because we don't believe in their God.

I buy this argument much more than "financial distress"....

This guy was radicalized and believed killing drunk partygoers at 3AM was justified/encouraged religiously because of our foreign policy...

 

[Majors]

This is false. Even terrorists don't think you can kill people for non-belief. And by terrorist I mean the leaders and not the ignorant rank and file. Ignorant people believe a lot of false things. But the intellectual leaders of Islamic terrorism don't argue you can just kill Christians and Jews cause they're non-believers or infidels. Why? Because the Quran EXPLICITLY outlaws that.

Christians and Jews are referred to as "people of the book" in the Quran. And the Quran explicitly says Allah will keep his covenant with them so long as they follow his words in the Gospel and Torah. The Quran actually cosigns Christianity and Judaism as originally being from Allah. But that people drifted away from the original versions of those religions. The Quran also explicitly offers Jews and Christians protections in an Islamic state to freely practice their religion so long as they pay a largely symbolic tax called the "jizyah". So its impossible for anyone who reads the Quran to intellectually argue for the killing of innocent Jews and Christians simply because they are not Muslim.

The argument the terrorists make is this. They argue they're not engaging in wars of aggression but are rather defending themselves and their people from Christian and Jewish aggression. They cite U.S. foreign policy and the treatment of Palestinians by the Jewish state as their justification in attacking America and Israel. Even Osama Bin Laden cited US foreign policy as the reason for 9/11. Nothing in the Quran justifies killing innocent people. The terrorists justify killing American and Israeli citizens in the same way our military justifies dropping bombs on buildings with innocent people and terrorists (i.e. collateral damage). Terrorism is their version of fighting back. Not them trying to attack us simply because we don't believe in their God.

This scene describes both views pretty accurately. Great movie too

 

[Jxn Vol]

If it's about religion then tell me why the nearly 2 billion Muslims around the world don't do the same thing? Why don't all 2 billion commit terrorism?

I don’t pretend to be an expert on the Muslim religion.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

This is an interesting response with which I will respectfully disagree. Defining a group of people (terrorists that don’t think you kill based on unbelief) by excluding people from the group who do believe that “thing” (the “ignorant rank and file”) seems like stacking the deck in favor of your argument.

Again, I am not speaking to Islam, or the Quran. I don’t need to. The fact is, there are many Muslims who believe killing the infidel is the will of the Almighty. This has been true my whole life, from Iran hostages in 1979 through the events in New Orleans.

You may be 100% correct, that those who hold this interpretation of the Quran are mistaken, and that those who believe this are ignorant followers who do not understand the “true” nature of their religion; again, it matters not, so long as those people commit their killings in the name of their religion.

I also do not think it is accurate to re-characterize terrorist attacks as being solely motivated by secular retribution to oppression entirely separate from religious justification, however misguided or misunderstood that expression might be. It may be human nature to believe “God is on our side,” but that is the point: Islam calls for peace through strength and resultant submission to that show of strength; that type of “peace” takes a certain amount of moral confidence to enforce.

Many, if not most terrorists invoke their diety when “resisting oppression.” I’d say that it is fair to conclude they do so because they believe that is what the diety wants from them and that they are being faithful and obedient by their response. Whether born out of scholarship or ignorance, that is a fact that cannot be ignored or denied.

Excellent post. Both in subject and execution. Well done.

 

[EasternVol]

Ha! You're not good at this.

If you say so.

 

[just bob]

If you say so.