New York City

#2,884
#2,884
NashVol11 said:
“Saved a bunch of people from a person yelling 😱 by just innocently ending his life, what a hero”
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Medical examiner testimony concluded he didn’t end the life of Jordan Neely. Drugs did. The manslaughter charges have been dismissed. They are now trying to allow a conviction on criminally negligent homicide, the much lesser charge. That would mean Neely died because life saving aid was prevented. That’s a huge stretch as aid was most likely there quicker due to the incident.
This was a BS prosecution from the beginning


 
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#2,885
#2,885
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#2,886
#2,886
Orangeslice13 said:
Medical examiner testimony concluded he didn’t end the life of Jordan Neely. Drugs did. The manslaughter charges have been dismissed. They are now trying to allow a conviction on criminally negligent homicide, the much lesser charge. That would mean Neely died because life saving aid was prevented. That’s a huge stretch as aid was most likely there quicker due to the incident.
This was a BS prosecution from the beginning


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Taking the defense’s case at face value is not usually a good idea, nor does any of that materially change my point that he’s being celebrated as a hero for choking out someone for yelling. I get it but this is kind of a separate point IMO
 
#2,887
#2,887
Said differently, even if he didn’t kill Neely and hell even if Neely were still alive today, it wouldn’t make Penny a “hero” for physically attacking a clearly mentally ill person over words. People just love making everything a culture war thing
 
#2,888
#2,888
NashVol11 said:
Taking the defense’s case at face value is not usually a good idea, nor does any of that materially change my point that he’s being celebrated as a hero for choking out someone for yelling. I get it but this is kind of a separate point IMO
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There’s an interesting free speech question here.

Do you have the right to yell in people’s faces and threaten them?
 
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#2,889
#2,889
Vol8188 said:
There’s an interesting free speech question here.

Do you have the right to yell in people’s faces and threaten them?
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I agree to an extent, and people can argue about whether threats are protected speech. I may be missing something obvious but I can’t remember many other situations where the right was as quick to justify killing* someone over speech though

*or physically harming that contributed to death, however people want to phrase it
 
#2,890
#2,890
NashVol11 said:
I agree to an extent, and people can argue about whether threats are protected speech. I may be missing something obvious but I can’t remember many other situations where the right was as quick to justify killing* someone over speech though

*or physically harming that contributed to death, however people want to phrase it
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No one said it does, but when you put yourself into a situation where you’re now giving others the right to use force against you, you are the one creating that risk to yourself.

If someone got in a women’s face and threatened to sexually assault her, she pushes them down, they hit their head and die. No one defending her would be doing so because they believed the other person should have been “killed over speech”.

But what we are saying is your actions can put you at risk and that’s what occurred here
 
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#2,891
#2,891
Vol8188 said:
No one said it does, but when you put yourself into a situation where you’re now giving others the right to use force against you, you are the one creating that risk to yourself.

If someone got in a women’s face and threatened to sexually assault her, she pushes them down, they hit their head and die. No one defending her would be doing so because they believed the other person should have been “killed over speech”.

But what we are saying is your actions can put you at risk and that’s what occurred here
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I don't think I disagree with this. If you start yelling in people's faces you've helped create a risk of someone else reacting (or overreacting) to that.

My issue is more with the characterization of him as a "hero" for attacking a mentally ill guy who didn't have a weapon and who (someone correct me if I'm wrong) didn't physically assault or even push anyone else, as if that same guy with no weapon would have somehow killed an entire subway car full of people if not for Penny. It's culture war tabloid BS to me. There's no indication anyone was in actual danger
 
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#2,892
#2,892
NashVol11 said:
I don't think I disagree with this. If you start yelling in people's faces you've helped create a risk of someone else reacting (or overreacting) to that.

My issue is more with the characterization of him as a "hero" for attacking a mentally ill guy who didn't have a weapon and who (someone correct me if I'm wrong) didn't physically assault or even push anyone else, as if that same guy with no weapon would have somehow killed an entire subway car full of people if not for Penny. It's culture war tabloid BS to me
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I’m glad we are mostly on the same page for once. Part of the hero aspect is standing up for others. I’m a firm believer in the idea that men who can help others, should.

I think you would firmly agree with that statement when it comes to a financial perspective (“tax the rich”), but do you agree with in terms of a physical perspective?

For example if a woman were being assaulted physically or sexually in your son’s presence (hypothetically, idk if you have or do not have a son) and he were physically capable of aiding her, would you want him to?

I think that’s why many see him as a hero. A physically capable man saw people being terrified and offered aid.
 
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#2,893
#2,893
NashVol11 said:
Taking the defense’s case at face value is not usually a good idea, nor does any of that materially change my point that he’s being celebrated as a hero for choking out someone for yelling. I get it but this is kind of a separate point IMO
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A respected medical examiner is a respected medical examiner. This one has testified for as many prosecutors as defenses.

The fact remains that the chokehold didn’t end his life.
In fact “chokehold “ is not accurate as a choke was not applied.
 
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#2,894
#2,894
Vol8188 said:
I’m glad we are mostly on the same page for once. Part of the hero aspect is standing up for others. I’m a firm believer in the idea that men who can help others, should.

I think you would firmly agree with that statement when it comes to a financial perspective (“tax the rich”), but do you agree with in terms of a physical perspective?

For example if a woman were being assaulted physically or sexually in your son’s presence (hypothetically, idk if you have or do not have a son) and he were physically capable of aiding her, would you want him to?

I think that’s why many see him as a hero. A physically capable man saw people being terrified and offered aid.
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I agree from a physical perspective regarding helping someone in danger. I don't think these people were in actual danger. I start being skeptical when it extends to "physically attacking people because someone is terrified" given how many people are disproportionately terrified of homeless people, Black people, mentally ill people etc. who don't pose an actual threat to them.

Also somewhat of a stretch to interpret a scared look on someone’s face as “please physically intervene” and there are things you can do before putting them in a chokehold
 
#2,895
#2,895
NashVol11 said:
I agree from a physical perspective regarding helping someone in danger. I don't think these people were in actual danger. I start being skeptical when it extends to "physically attacking people because someone is terrified" given how many people are disproportionately terrified of homeless people, Black people, mentally ill people etc. who don't pose an actual threat to them (and there are things you can do before putting them in a chokehold)
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Statistically every group you named is more likely to commit a violent act. So I don’t think your claim of “disproportionate fear” really makes sense. It’s also a hell of a lot easier for you to Monday morning quarterback their fear from the comfort of your home, vs the people who were in the actual situation.

Of all the things, I’d argue a chokehold is one of the safest things you can do. What would you have seen as a better alternative?
 
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#2,896
#2,896
NashVol11 said:
Taking the defense’s case at face value is not usually a good idea, nor does any of that materially change my point that he’s being celebrated as a hero for choking out someone for yelling. I get it but this is kind of a separate point IMO
Click to expand...
At what point would you consider it OK to actually intervene? Does the person actually have to assault someone before intervention?
 
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#2,897
#2,897
NashVol11 said:
Said differently, even if he didn’t kill Neely and hell even if Neely were still alive today, it wouldn’t make Penny a “hero” for physically attacking a clearly mentally ill person over words. People just love making everything a culture war thing
Click to expand...
Ironic post.
 
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#2,898
#2,898
NashVol11 said:
Said differently, even if he didn’t kill Neely and hell even if Neely were still alive today, it wouldn’t make Penny a “hero” for physically attacking a clearly mentally ill person over words. People just love making everything a culture war thing
Click to expand...
I’m not in the “he’s a hero” camp. But…..if my wife is on that train and he yells in her face (as several reports say he did to people on the train) and he’s yelling about killing someone at random (which many reports say he did) then I’m likely grabbing him. Again it would be if he was an immediate threat to her. I don’t think it’s as simple as people being overly sensitive here. I’d put this in the same category as yelling fire in a crowded theater. There are things you just can’t do in public.
 
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#2,899
#2,899
Orangeslice13 said:
I’m not in the “he’s a hero” camp. But…..if my wife is on that train and he yells in her face (as several reports say he did to people on the train) and he’s yelling about killing someone at random (which many reports say he did) then I’m likely grabbing him. Again it would be if he was an immediate threat to her. I don’t think it’s as simple as people being overly sensitive here. I’d put this in the same category as yelling fire in a crowded theater. There are things you just can’t do in public.
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Agreed. If someone comes to me in an aggressive tone and is yelling about their desire to harm me or others, I’m not waiting for them to throw the first punch because they may connect. I’m going to act
 
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#2,900
#2,900
NashVol11 said:
I agree to an extent, and people can argue about whether threats are protected speech. I may be missing something obvious but I can’t remember many other situations where the right was as quick to justify killing* someone over speech though

*or physically harming that contributed to death, however people want to phrase it
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But he didn't kill him..he subdued him...even the police who refused life saving measure are on video of Neely with a pulse...after the hold was released...Hero..idk I wouldn't call him that..good Samaritan..yes...the question is should the police he required life saving for measure for someone possibly contagious..
The
 
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