Now Comes The Fun Part.

#101
#101
BigPapaVol said:
I think if you polled the best defensive coaches in the world, they'd all tell you the difference on D is effort and focus. Not some overwhelming knowledge. Those who focus put to use the limited knowledge it takes to be good at it. Those who don't, get beat.
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There is no question that effort is a large component. But if your feet are in the wrong place, and your butt is in the wrong place, and you can't see the ball and the man, and you aren't in good position on screens or cuts, you are going to get beat anyway, no matter how much effort you expend. All you are going to do is work your tail off while your man notches another career scoring high against you.

The universal coaches of which you speak I am sure would assume you gave them fundamentally sound defenders for the comparison. Sadly, we are in short supply of those.
 
#102
#102
BigPapaVol said:
that's stupid. It's not remotely irrelevant. You either know what it takes to coach / play defense or you do not.

The volumes of man to man defensive theory are about 1 book thick and that's massively repetitive. You defend your man, help (or not) and defend screens. That's the whole deal. Defending a man is about footwork to some degree, but it's not rocket science.

I want you to tell me what you think it is our kids don't know about D.
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who said it was rocket science? i've said all along our problem is basic fundamentals. and i thought this was beaten to death. apparently not. so for starters, ball-you-man.
 
#103
#103
TennNC said:
do you think Pearl ever told any of them, or bobby maze, or tabb, something at all similar to this:

"I don't care what you do next time down the court, you don't let him touch the ball. You hear me? And if he gets the ball, I want you to immediately get as close to him as humanly possible and make him so uncomfortable he wants to cry and ask for his mom. And if he even starts to shoot on you or beat you, I want you to make him pay for trying that. And if you don't do what I'm telling you, you're going to sit next to me until you figure it out. And you're going to have nightmares tonight thinking about what we're going to do in practice tomorrow."

anything remotely similar?
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Considering Pearl said in the postgame presser that the gameplan was to deny Meeks the ball, I'd say they were aware what they were supposed to do.
 
#104
#104
cotton said:
There is no question that effort is a large component. But if your feet are in the wrong place, and your butt is in the wrong place, and you can't see the ball and the man, and you aren't in good position on screens or cuts, you are going to get beat anyway, no matter how much effort you expend. All you are going to do is work your tail off while your man notches another career scoring high against you.

The universal coaches of which you speak I am sure would assume you gave them fundamentally sound defenders for the comparison. Sadly, we are in short supply of those.
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but how much is there really to teach about defensive positioning? How freaking much? Our guys know, they simply don't put it to use because it doesn't impact them on our team. So what, we got beat. I'll get to play tomorrow.

The universal coaches would trade sound fundamentals for athleticism, effort and focus all day long.
 
#105
#105
BigPapaVol said:
and therein lies the problem. Our guys don't lose PT for failure on D. There are no repercussions.
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that will work as long as they also are rewarded for following through - rewarded mainly by stopping the other team from scoring easy buckets. and if they don't know what to do, they simply will be punished repeatedly with no improvement.
 
#106
#106
TennNC said:
who said it was rocket science? i've said all along our problem is basic fundamentals. and i thought this was beaten to death. apparently not. so for starters, ball-you-man.
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we are very well aware of ball you man. we are aware of defensive positioning and screens and such. We simply don't force our players to employ anything that they do know.
 
#107
#107
TennNC said:
that will work as long as they also are rewarded for following through - rewarded mainly by stopping the other team from scoring easy buckets. and if they don't know what to do, they simply will be punished repeatedly with no improvement.
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our reward system is about offense and getting Bilas to say hustle. Punishment, IMO, is about PT. We have several who should be losing it and earning it back only by playing solid D.
 
#108
#108
cotton said:
There is no question that effort is a large component. But if your feet are in the wrong place, and your butt is in the wrong place, and you can't see the ball and the man, and you aren't in good position on screens or cuts, you are going to get beat anyway, no matter how much effort you expend. All you are going to do is work your tail off while your man notches another career scoring high against you.

The universal coaches of which you speak I am sure would assume you gave them fundamentally sound defenders for the comparison. Sadly, we are in short supply of those.
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Cotton, I can only assume you have coached and played at a high level. I can't imagine you'd have the gall to post such incredible basketball knowledge simply simply from playing organized basketball as a youngster or attending 3 bball camps each summer learning how to play defense from novices like Dean Smith, Terry Holland, Ernie Grunfeld, Bryant Stith, John Crotty and Kenny Smith.
 
#109
#109
BigPapaVol said:
we are very well aware of ball you man. we are aware of defensive positioning and screens and such. We simply don't force our players to employ anything that they do know.
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what proof have you that they in fact know it? it happens so infrequently that it's more likely random than intentional.
 
#110
#110
BigPapaVol said:
We have several who should be losing it and earning it back only by playing solid D.
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How dare you suggest Saint Bruce act like those mean ol' men like Huggins, Chaney, and Knight? Don't you realize that defense is all about learning highly esoteric concepts like getting a hand in someone's face?
 
#111
#111
BigPapaVol said:
but how much is there really to teach about defensive positioning? How freaking much? Our guys know, they simply don't put it to use because it doesn't impact them on our team. So what, we got beat. I'll get to play tomorrow.

The universal coaches would trade sound fundamentals for athleticism, effort and focus all day long.
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Only because they can teach the fundamentals, not because they aren't necessary.

Look, I get your point. Intensity is lacking. It isn't the only thing. And Scotty Hopson isn't going to become a good defender just by trying harder. The problems are deeper than that.
 
#112
#112
TennNC said:
Cotton, I can only assume you have coached and played at a high level. I can't imagine you'd have the gall to post such incredible basketball knowledge simply simply from playing organized basketball as a youngster or attending 3 bball camps each summer learning how to play defense from novices like Dean Smith, Terry Holland, Ernie Grunfeld, Bryant Stith, John Crotty and Kenny Smith.
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remind me which of that crew was a defensive mind?

I guarantee you that everyone on that list would tell you that defense is about heart, not about head, even though none every played or coached any to speak of.

Summer camps are about fun time. Team coaching is a different animal, but don't let that shake your belief that defense is Neurosurgery. I'm surprised more schools aren't pulling down Rhodes scholars to teach the theory of the man D. Maybe we should be recruiting guys with pocket protectors with a penchant for fundamentals. They'll defend well.
 
#115
#115
cotton said:
Only because they can teach the fundamentals, not because they aren't necessary.

Look, I get your point. Intensity is lacking. It isn't the only thing. And Scotty Hopson isn't going to become a good defender just by trying harder. The problems are deeper than that.
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If Hopson would try hard and focus on his function in the defense, he could be incredible without knowing another shred of defensive basketball.
 
#116
#116
I love you guys. But once "pocket protectors" came out, it's a sure sign this is going nowhere.
 
#117
#117
cotton said:
Only because they can teach the fundamentals, not because they aren't necessary.

Look, I get your point. Intensity is lacking. It isn't the only thing. And Scotty Hopson isn't going to become a good defender just by trying harder. The problems are deeper than that.
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I'm shocked that you're so bought into the defensive coachspeak that abounds out there. It's mainly garbage to make it sound tough. The guys that get their folks to sell out on the defensive end have the teams that play the best D. Coach K is not some defensive genius, but every one of his players knows full well that half assed defense means time with Wojo and Collins in seat 11.
 
#119
#119
hatvol96 said:
How dare you suggest Saint Bruce act like those mean ol' men like Huggins, Chaney, and Knight? Don't you realize that defense is all about learning highly esoteric concepts like getting a hand in someone's face?
Click to expand...

BigPapaVol said:
If Hopson would try hard and focus on his function in the defense, he could be incredible without knowing another shred of defensive basketball.
Click to expand...

Did anything in last night's performance indicate to either of you that Hopson, or Maze, or Tabb, or Prince, or any of the guys guarding the screener, understood the highly esoteric concept of defending an screen on the ballhandler, a necessary forerunner of putting a hand in the face? Perhaps with a little more focus, that shred of defensive basketball wouldn't have been necessary.
 
#120
#120
cotton said:
Did anything in last night's performance indicate to either of you that Hopson, or Maze, or Tabb, or Prince, or any of the guys guarding the screener, understood the highly esoteric concept of defending an screen on the ballhandler, a necessary forerunner of putting a hand in the face? Perhaps with a little more focus, that shred of defensive basketball wouldn't have been necessary.
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I have no idea what Hopson does and doesn't understand because as languidly as he moves on the floor, I'm overwhelmed with the fear he's going to fall asleep walking back down the floor. He has absolutely confirmed what a coach I've known for years told me this summer. "I know you hated watching Vincent Yarbrough's lazy ass play. Well, Hopson will make him look like Joe Dumars effortwise." He's done exactly that.
 
#121
#121
hatvol96 said:
I have no idea what Hopson does and doesn't understand because as languidly as he moves on the floor, I'm overwhelmed with the fear he's going to fall asleep walking back down the floor. He has absolutely confirmed what a coach I've known for years told me this summer. "I know you hated watching Vincent Yarbrough's lazy ass play. Well, Hopson will make him look like Joe Dumars effortwise." He's done exactly that.
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Damn that is spot on.
 
#122
#122
hatvol96 said:
I have no idea what Hopson does and doesn't understand because as languidly as he moves on the floor, I'm overwhelmed with the fear he's going to fall asleep walking back down the floor. He has absolutely confirmed what a coach I've known for years told me this summer. "I know you hated watching Vincent Yarbrough's lazy ass play. Well, Hopson will make him look like Joe Dumars effortwise." He's done exactly that.
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I'm not going to disagree with you. I hope some of that is self-consciousness and he'll grow out of it, but he has never been a very intense guy.

However, he isn't the only guy getting beat on a regular basis. Tabb was lost last night. Maze never had a chance. Intensity is lacking on the defensive end; there is no question about it. But the overwhelming impression I get when watching them on the floor is that those guys don't know what they are doing.
 
#124
#124
Hat, BPV, TennNC, and Cotton... Regardless of your differrent takes, when does it get better? What must be done?
Lack of effort/intensity, or lack of fundamentals/coaching, no punishment, no accountability... What will get better sooner? What will cause an improved defense, or at least an improved defensive mentality?
 
#125
#125
joeydupree said:
Hat, BPV, TennNC, and Cotton... Regardless of your differrent takes, when does it get better? What must be done?
Lack of effort/intensity, or lack of fundamentals/coaching, no punishment, no accountability... What will get better sooner? What will cause an improved defense, or at least an improved defensive mentality?
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For Tatum, Hopson, Woolridge, and Negedu, I don't see any real chance for significant improvement until the offseason. They all have to get stronger, faster, smarter, and sounder.

For Tabb and Maze, I hope there will be some continued gradual improvement throughout the season. If there is, the offense should improve along with the guys who have the ball in their hands most of the time.

For Prince, unless his injury is bothering him more than I know and he can get healthy, I don't think there is a lot of improvement to be made.

I don't think you can fix the team's defensive woes until you fix the individual defenders, and with the group of freshmen getting significant minutes, there will be glaring weaknesses all season. Hat suggested it a few weeks ago, but the best answer at this point might be to try to hide part of the problems in a zone.

That's my take, anyway...
 
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