Obama asks for stay of execution in Texas.

#101
#101
IPorange said:
I don't understand. Outsiders view this as the US breaking a treaty, as I said they might, and now you are saying Obama should pay the penalty for Texas playing their states' rights game? All because they had the right to refuse doesn't mean it was a sensible time to invoke that right.
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To me it's not about states rights. It's about someone who has lived in America almost his whole life (something I saw in the thread, that may not be true) that committed horrific crime and is using this as a last ditch response to avoid his punishment once his verdict was handed down.

I definitely think he should have been able to contact the consulate, but I only really have the issue if he requested it and was denied. If he planned to use it as a last resort to avoid execution, then I don't have much sympathy for him. My concern, like yours, is that other Americans could potentially be put in danger.
 
#102
#102
IPorange said:
I don't understand. Outsiders view this as the US breaking a treaty, as I said they might, and now you are saying Obama should pay the penalty for Texas playing their states' rights game? All because they had the right to refuse doesn't mean it was a sensible time to invoke that right.
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He filed multiple appeals. Grown highly educated men weighed his fate forwards and back. He was advised of all his rights by his lawyer for multiple years. He never asked for this. Likely, he did not think of it because he has been here since he was 2. Obama knows all this. He does not care even a little about this man or this treaty. In fact, I went and looked through some foreign newspapers online and this is a non story and a non issue. Obama intentionally got involved with one purpose, to help his 2012 election. He thinks this will help him with spanish speakers in the area and he wanted to tempt Perry to blink. Perry handled it perfectly. He did not play and killed the sorry SOB. Of course, Obama did give a scare to the victim's family.

Guilt is not at issue here. He has admitted to crime now. Any American who in the future is harmed by a foreign government would have been harmed regardless. Evil men will find reasons to do what they want. Good men would look at the facts of this case and applaud. Of course, if you are against the death penalty all together you will always object.

The only thing that even makes this case interesting is Obama's involvement. The fact he is so willing to do this in hopes of an election benefit is breath taking. He sinks to lows I never thought he was capable of. I am not a hardcore Republican. I am not a Democrat. I would not allow Obama in my home. I would certainly never vote for him. I do not want a Bachmann or the like to be my candidate either but I will vote for them over this evil man any and every day.
 
#103
#103
To the above posts responding to me: I am not in the least concerned about this man. It is merely the international perception and the honor of the United States that I am concerned with. I'm 100 % sure he has gotten as fair of a shake or more so as anyone in the US legal system, which is to say an honest one.

But to me, international politics supercedes states' rights pissing contests. Also, I fail to see what difference it makes as to whether he is fried 9 years after the crime or 10 or 11 years afterward.
 
#104
#104
IPorange said:
To the above posts responding to me: I am not in the least concerned about this man. It is merely the international perception and the honor of the United States that I am concerned with. I'm 100 % sure he has gotten as fair of a shake or more so as anyone in the US legal system, which is to say an honest one.

But to me, international politics supercedes states' rights pissing contests. Also, I fail to see what difference it makes as to whether he is fried 9 years after the crime or 10 or 11 years afterward.
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This is not an international issue it is a non issue. Obama just asked the Mexis to get involved. The issue is with our POTUS.
 
#105
#105
Jewbaccah said:
This is not an international issue it is a non issue. Obama just asked the Mexis to get involved. The issue is with our POTUS.
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Such a non issue that the UN now says the US broke international law. I know people don't respect the UN, but you can't just pretend like they don't exist at all.
 
#106
#106
IPorange said:
Such a non issue that the UN now says the US broke international law. I know people don't respect the UN, but you can't just pretend like they don't exist at all.
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Most countries do ignore the General Assembly. We should all together ignore it and let them know they are on ignore. How do you think this issue was brought to the floor? Do you think UN members really care about this? If we go about trying to please the UN we will have no sovereignty and be governed by the rest of the world. Do you think the UN has good intentions?
 
#107
#107
I would have been fine with Texas delaying the execution a little, but I'm glad the Supreme Court ruled as they did.
 
#108
#108
Jewbaccah said:
Most countries do ignore the General Assembly. We should all together ignore it and let them know they are on ignore. How do you think this issue was brought to the floor? Do you think UN members really care about this? If we go about trying to please the UN we will have no sovereignty and be governed by the rest of the world. Do you think the UN has good intentions?
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I know many view the UN as an evil entity trying to establish a world government. Whatever. The point is it HAS had an international consequence already that was completely needless. We signed a treaty, and then nationally didn't enforce it or honor it for no other reason than a states' rights pissing contest.

That doesn't look good. It makes us look like we can't be trusted.
 
#109
#109
IP we can agree to disagree. No one in the world really gives a flying.......we did not look bad and no one really even knows about this. It was a political creature pure and simple. We did the right thing.
 
#111
#111
IPorange said:
We did the right thing a very careless way.
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240px-KennyInHospital.jpg
 
#112
#112
IPorange said:
We did the right thing a very careless way.
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What do you think about the Court's actual ruling, though? Do you feel they ruled as they should have? I would have liked to see him get a meaningless call, but I think the court had to rule that way.
 
#113
#113
tvolsfan said:
What do you think about the Court's actual ruling, though? Do you feel they ruled as they should have? I would have liked to see him get a meaningless call, but I think the court had to rule that way.
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The court had no choice at that juncture. Texas did, though.
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#114
#114
honest question IP, do you think international treaties should trump US laws?
 
#116
#116
utvolpj said:
honest question IP, do you think international treaties should trump US laws?
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If we sign a treaty, it should be reflected in US laws. If we don't intend to follow it or we can't make it a law that is enforceable against states, we shouldn't sign it. I don't think we should break made deals with allies.

But in this case, Texas was being very small minded.
 
#118
#118
and when the process is not followed and it is not part of US laws then should it still be followed? This isn't just a state telling the feds to scram it's a state saying this was never ratified so we don't have to follow it. Had the fed gov't done it the right way there would have been no issue. It seems you're advocating the treaty over existing US laws which I can't ever agree with
 
#119
#119
IPorange said:
If we sign a treaty, it should be reflected in US laws. If we don't intend to follow it or we can't make it a law that is enforceable against states, we shouldn't sign it. I don't think we should break made deals with allies.

But in this case, Texas was being very small minded.
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small minded? ask the family of a 16 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO WAS BRUTALLY MURDERED.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S SMALL MINDED.
 
#120
#120
utvolpj said:
and when the process is not followed and it is not part of US laws then should it still be followed? This isn't just a state telling the feds to scram it's a state saying this was never ratified so we don't have to follow it. Had the fed gov't done it the right way there would have been no issue. It seems you're advocating the treaty over existing US laws which I can't ever agree with
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this is pure politics, nothing more. Texas did the right thing.
 
#121
#121
joevol320 said:
small minded? ask the family of a 16 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO WAS BRUTALLY MURDERED.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S SMALL MINDED.
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I've repeatedly said that there is no question he should be executed. I know reading is very difficult for you, but if you're going to talk to the people with an even number of chromosomes, you're going to have to dig deep in that department.
 
#122
#122
utvolpj said:
and when the process is not followed and it is not part of US laws then should it still be followed? This isn't just a state telling the feds to scram it's a state saying this was never ratified so we don't have to follow it. Had the fed gov't done it the right way there would have been no issue. It seems you're advocating the treaty over existing US laws which I can't ever agree with
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In this specific case, Texas could have honored the agreement, let the guy have a token conversation with his consulate and then fried him. Doing so would have had the same result for this guy, and not put American lives abroad at increased risk and not eroded confidence in the US to honor what they agree to.

Saying I'm advocating the treaty over existing US laws is a gross simplification of what I've written multiple times. You can't ignore all the nuance and build a straw man to you liking. Otherwise, I could claim that you believe all US treaties should be ignored and broken.

Oh wait, some of the folks in this thread probably DO believe that.
 
#123
#123
how is it a strawman to say this is not US law that the states must follow?

Could allowing him to talk to the consulate not have opened up a bunch of issues that possibly could have even allowed for a new trial? This guy was in prison for 16yrs without once requesting the call. The only reason he did this was for a last minute effort to save his own skin that isn't worth the $.05 long distance charge.
 
#124
#124
IPorange said:
I've repeatedly said that there is no question he should be executed. I know reading is very difficult for you, but if you're going to talk to the people with an even number of chromosomes, you're going to have to dig deep in that department.
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so you think he should be executed, but you also think texas is small minded because they didn't listen to the UN. typical liberals, wants it both ways.
 
#125
#125
utvolpj said:
how is it a strawman to say this is not US law that the states must follow?

Could allowing him to talk to the consulate not have opened up a bunch of issues that possibly could have even allowed for a new trial? This guy was in prison for 16yrs without once requesting the call. The only reason he did this was for a last minute effort to save his own skin that isn't worth the $.05 long distance charge.
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also, he's been in the country since he was a little kid. it wasn't like he was just arrived.

this is political, liberals doing what liberals do.
 
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