Obama/Clinton state dept designates Israel as terrorist sponsor.

[KiffinKiller]

Especially shocking considering he spent most of his adult life fighting terrorists.

Let's not get into the facts here. Much more fun dealing with the flamboyant statements.

 

[therealUT]

Let's not get into the facts here. Much more fun dealing with the flamboyant statements.

Facts do not exist in GS's world (of course, one could blast me for this statement with regard to my statement I just made in the technological singularity thread).

 

[gsvol]

So does Israel knowingly harbor terrorists or not? Simple question That doesn't need a 2000 word answer.
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Duh?

Depends on your politics.

Your politics or your religion?

The real cause of unceasing conflict is arab
supremacism coupled with islam.

Two generations of Jews have now displaced a nomadic people who traversed that land for thousands of years; the West, in its guilt over the Holocaust, has conceded this territory for no logical reason.

I, for one, do not give a damn for their "plight". Never have; never will.

Most of those nomadic arabs in the area only arrived
after 1919 and those who were there before were majority
Christian Arabs.

What you explain as guilt over the Holocaust happened
well befor the Holocaust.

Shortly after the end of WWII the arab states attacked
Israel and captured Judea and Samaria and renamed it
the west bank, most of the arabs there arrived after
1949.

Once again your sophisty flows freely.

You must get your talking points from the MB.

Facts do not exist in GS's world (of course, one could blast me for this statement with regard to my statement I just made in the technological singularity thread).

On this topic it would be hard to find anyone who
has their facts more wrong than you.

 

[lawgator1]

Prior to election of Obama, I imagine gsvol and the insane bloggers he quotes would have given a rat's azz about Israel. But when it suits their "Obama is a A-rab Muslim" agenda, all of a sudden they are obsessed with it.

 

[therealUT]

Most of those nomadic arabs in the area only arrived
after 1919 and those who were there before were majority
Christian Arabs.

Historically incorrect. The only historically accurate thing to say regarding the lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region is that there was a lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region; they were nomads (which is where the term Arab comes from) that traversed the land and did not establish permanent settlements. That in no way implies that they had not been on that land for thousands of contiguous years.

What you explain as guilt over the Holocaust happened
well befor the Holocaust.

The Zionist Movement certainly occurred before the Holocaust; mass Western sympathy for the "plight of the Jews" did not occur until after the Holocaust.

Shortly after the end of WWII the arab states attacked
Israel and captured Judea and Samaria and renamed it
the west bank, most of the arabs there arrived after
1949.

In 1947, the Jewish denizens of the Palestinian Mandate began a campaign of guerrilla warfare against both the Muslim denizens of the region and against the British. This campaign was to gain supremacy in the region prior to the exodus of the British; it worked.

On this topic it would be hard to find anyone who
has their facts more wrong than you.

Feel free to provide any historical evidence that defeats my position.

 

[Jewbaccah]

Historically incorrect. The only historically accurate thing to say regarding the lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region is that there was a lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region; they were nomads (which is where the term Arab comes from) that traversed the land and did not establish permanent settlements. That in no way implies that they had not been on that land for thousands of contiguous years.



The Zionist Movement certainly occurred before the Holocaust; mass Western sympathy for the "plight of the Jews" did not occur until after the Holocaust.



In 1947, the Jewish denizens of the Palestinian Mandate began a campaign of guerrilla warfare against both the Muslim denizens of the region and against the British. This campaign was to gain supremacy in the region prior to the exodus of the British; it worked.



Feel free to provide any historical evidence that defeats my position.

You are spreading so many lies I do not know where to start. You are honestly spreading the message of terrorist. You are repeating propoganda messages guys with AK47s tell to their children. You may have won the respect of some on here due to past service or other actions. I have on this site documented how history such as this is intentionally misleading to straight out falsehoods. I wonder though what is the point of proving fools like you wrong? You will believe what you want to believe anyways. As I get older I have discovered there are just people in this planet who don't get it and never will.

I can understand how an American would want to stay out of a favoritism type of relationship with Israel. Of course, America as a governemnetal entity has not always favored Israel. They most certainly did not in the 1940s. They most certainly do not now. Obama is an enemy of the country. Clinton was neutral. Bush was very Pro-Israel no doubt. Point being it is President to President...it is not as one sided as some may think. Israel is certainly not relying on our support.

I cannot as an American support the anti-semetic messages and false histories therealTerrorist is projecting.

 

[therealUT]

You are spreading so many lies I do not know where to start. You are honestly spreading the message of terrorist. You are repeating propoganda messages guys with AK47s tell to their children. You may have won the respect of some on here due to past service or other actions. I have on this site documented how history such as this is intentionally misleading to straight out falsehoods. I wonder though what is the point of proving fools like you wrong? You will believe what you want to believe anyways. As I get older I have discovered there are just people in this planet who don't get it and never will.

I can understand how an American would want to stay out of a favoritism type of relationship with Israel. Of course, America as a governemnetal entity has not always favored Israel. They most certainly did not in the 1940s. They most certainly do not now. Obama is an enemy of the country. Clinton was neutral. Bush was very Pro-Israel no doubt. Point being it is President to President...it is not as one sided as some may think. Israel is certainly not relying on our support.

I cannot as an American support the anti-semetic messages and false histories therealTerrorist is projecting.

In all of this, you have not once provided a counter-claim to my assertions.

 

[Jewbaccah]

In all of this, you have not once provided a counter-claim to my assertions.

I am sure you have been provided the real history before you chose not to believe it. It does not fit your perception of reality. So you have chosen to ignore it as the false history.

It is well documented that the Arabs were planning to attack Israel as soon as the British left. It was not a hidden agenda. It was well documented that America and the British were neutral only in name and had sided with the Arabs...the guns Israel used in its defence and independence war were German and Russian. They were leftovers from WW11. These Guerilla fighters you describe came fresh from concentration camps or the battlefields of WW11. They got the weapons just in time to defend themselves. They were stored in the island of Crete and the like; whereas the British forbid them as a tactic to ensure Israel's defeat.

And really the corrections go on and on...if you want links I bet you can figure out how google works I have faith. This could likely go on and on...people believe what fits there little world I guess.

 

[therealUT]

I am sure you have been provided the real history before you chose not to believe it. It does not fit your perception of reality. So you have chosen to ignore it as the false history.

It is well documented that the Arabs were planning to attack Israel as soon as the British left. It was not a hidden agenda. It was well documented that America and the British were neutral only in name and had sided with the Arabs...the guns Israel used in its defence and independence war were German and Russian. They were leftovers from WW11. These Guerilla fighters you describe came fresh from concentration camps or the battlefields of WW11. They got the weapons just in time to defend themselves. They were stored in the island of Crete and the like; whereas the British forbid them as a tactic to ensure Israel's defeat.

And really the corrections go on and on...if you want links I bet you can figure out how google works I have faith. This could likely go on and on...people believe what fits there little world I guess.

Fair enough. The Israeli Jews resorted to Guerilla Warfare because outside forces would not let them have a conventional Army and were working against them. This is different from the situation in Palestine, now, in what way, exactly?*

*This is a rhetorical question that needs absolutely no answer from you, as you have been beaten in this contest of wits. Sit down.

 

[Jewbaccah]

Fair enough. The Israeli Jews resorted to Guerilla Warfare because outside forces would not let them have a conventional Army and were working against them. This is different from the situation in Palestine, now, in what way, exactly?*

*This is a rhetorical question that needs absolutely no answer from you, as you have been beaten in this contest of wits. Sit down.

Like I said Fools will always be Fools...you are not listening you have likely learned very little historically in a long time...you know what you believe you just want to debate without facing the facts. I am not sure what has created this hate inside you and it is hate...you can hide it with wit and humor...but I recognize it all too well. Is it a palestenian girl friend? A friend? You are Arab? When did being a hateful yet witted fool become your MO?

 

[therealUT]

Like I said Fools will always be Fools...you are not listening you have likely learned very little historically in a long time...you know what you believe you just want to debate without facing the facts. I am not sure what has created this hate inside you and it is hate...you can hide it with wit and humor...but I recognize it all too well. Is it a palestenian girl friend? A friend? You are Arab? When did being a hateful yet witted fool become your MO?

When did you make the decision to completely avoid any kind of logical argument because you know your position is absolutely indefensible?

I've lost a good many friends indirectly due to the relation between the US and Israel and Israels continued and consistent defiance of any semblance of rights for a bunch of persons, simply because they feel they are the "Chosen People" on their "Chosen Land" of "Milk and Honey".

To me, Israel is little more than the short guy at the bar with a Napolean complex and big friends, and we are Israel's big friend. I would like to see the US put an end to the current relationship and let Israel deal with its own problems without our funding or our equipment.

Would you consider a complete removal of US assistance to Israel fair or unfair? It is a direct question and I would appreciate a direct answer.

 

[IPorange]

I can't believe the "Palestinian girlfriend" card just got played.

 

[Weezy]

Jewbaccah is the other extreme to the all teachers are libs crowd. By that I mean, he cannot intellectually make his point (similar to other teachers I've crossed in my day, just the other side of the aisle). Instead he just screams you are wrong by making general statements of "fools will be fools" without making an argument at all.

Point - TRUT

 

[Jewbaccah]

When did you make the decision to completely avoid any kind of logical argument because you know your position is absolutely indefensible?

I've lost a good many friends indirectly due to the relation between the US and Israel and Israels continued and consistent defiance of any semblance of rights for a bunch of persons, simply because they feel they are the "Chosen People" on their "Chosen Land" of "Milk and Honey".

To me, Israel is little more than the short guy at the bar with a Napolean complex and big friends, and we are Israel's big friend. I would like to see the US put an end to the current relationship and let Israel deal with its own problems without our funding or our equipment.

Would you consider a complete removal of US assistance to Israel fair or unfair? It is a direct question and I would appreciate a direct answer.

What you appreciate is not really what must be done...you have made conclusory or false statements and then just moved on...you have in no way documented your view of history. You could site some Arab websites I am sure but you would then be GS's opposite. To your question, if they stopped selling all the weapons they sell now to Egypt and all the other countries in the area sure...plus no more money to Arabs in the west bank or gaza. Of course, Israel will no longer feel obliged to design the software for much of America's military technology nor provide the intel America so desperately needs. Since Obama has been in office Israel has already made strides to separate itself from us until such time as a new regime is in place.

Yet you never answered my question directly...what real life event made you believe the nonsense you believe now? I am quite sure it was not from research.

 

[therealUT]

What you appreciate is not really what must be done...you have made conclusory or false statements and then just moved on...you have in no way documented your view of history. You could site some Arab websites I am sure but you would then be GS's opposite. To your question, if they stopped selling all the weapons they sell now to Egypt and all the other countries in the area sure...plus no more money to Arabs in the west bank or gaza. Of course, Israel will no longer feel obliged to design the software for much of America's military technology nor provide the intel America so desperately needs. Since Obama has been in office Israel has already made strides to separate itself from us until such time as a new regime is in place.

Yet you never answered my question directly...what real life event made you believe the nonsense you believe now? I am quite sure it was not from research.

Fair or unfair; I did not ask for qualifiers and the question is not loaded with any presuppositons. You are, according to the rules of reasonable dialogue, required to answer the question or concede the entire argument.

As for your question, which is burdened with unproven presuppositions:
- that what I believe is nonsense has not been proven by you
- that some drastic event (which you detailed earlier...Palestinian Girlfriend, etc.) must have deviated my views
- that one could not reach my conclusion through research

Prove those presuppositions and then I will answer your "direct" question.
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[Jewbaccah]

Fair or unfair; I did not ask for qualifiers and the question is not loaded with any presuppositons. You are, according to the rules of reasonable dialogue, required to answer the question or concede the entire argument.

As for your question, which is burdened with unproven presuppositions:
- that what I believe is nonsense has not been proven by you
- that some drastic event (which you detailed earlier...Palestinian Girlfriend, etc.) must have deviated my views
- that one could not reach my conclusion through research

Prove those presuppositions and then I will answer your "direct" question.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

You first?

Write a footnoted paper on your proposition. You have made serious claims. Primary Historical documents only. You do not make the rules friends. As childish as this is I double dog dare you to do this.

 

[therealUT]

You first?

Write a footnoted paper on your proposition. You have made serious claims. Primary Historical documents only. You do not make the rules friends. As childish as this is I double dog dare you to do this.

Start with David Fromkin's "A Peace to End All Peace" (he cites plenty of primry documents). Next, move to "British Imperialism". Then, round it off with "Arab Nationalism" and "The Shia Revival". For a look into Israeli Warfare in 1947, read Col. Nagl's "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife". Those are just off the top of my head; however, they are a great start.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[KiffinKiller]

YouTube - ‪Family guy- donkey say no no no‬‏

 

[Jewbaccah]

Start with David Fromkin's "A Peace to End All Peace" (he cites plenty of primry documents). Next, move to "British Imperialism". Then, round it off with "Arab Nationalism" and "The Shia Revival". For a look into Israeli Warfare in 1947, read Col. Nagl's "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife". Those are just off the top of my head; however, they are a great start.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

If that is off the top of your head then surely you can do as requested and save us all a bunch of time and write specific footnotes citing primary sources to your proposed fact...

 

[therealUT]

If that is off the top of your head then surely you can do as requested and save us all a bunch of time and write specific footnotes citing primary sources to your proposed fact...

I could; however, I have more pressing errands in my life than to write thrity pages of historical fact that would be dismissed by you as simply a pro-Islam, anti-Israeli conspiracy. I have offered you sources and you will find that they validate my claims and that the writers are peer-reviewed and have no alterior motives (Nagl was writing his tract in an effort to defeat the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan).

I will continue my life as is; I will continue to undersand and acknowledge that I killed Muslims who deserved to be killed and helped Muslims that deserved to be helped; hopefully, I will become an FSO and continue to try to address and solve problems in the world with both rational persons and irrational, religious funamentalists who pay no heed to objective historical facts. I will be fine as long as I continue to place knowledge on pedastal and place altars in my rearview mirror.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[IPorange]

I will be fine as long as I continue to place knowledge on pedastal and place altars in my rearview mirror.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Jewbaccah]

I could; however, I have more pressing errands in my life than to write thrity pages of historical fact that would be dismissed by you as simply a pro-Islam, anti-Israeli conspiracy. I have offered you sources and you will find that they validate my claims and that the writers are peer-reviewed and have no alterior motives (Nagl was writing his tract in an effort to defeat the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan).

I will continue my life as is; I will continue to undersand and acknowledge that I killed Muslims who deserved to be killed and helped Muslims that deserved to be helped; hopefully, I will become an FSO and continue to try to address and solve problems in the world with both rational persons and irrational, religious funamentalists who pay no heed to objective historical facts. I will be fine as long as I continue to place knowledge on pedastal and place altars in my rearview mirror.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Yet in all your well written statements not one documented fact and only half truths to back up what you say. You use the bullet time and time again on this site that others do not back up what they say and I have never seen you do it...a general reference to large secondary sources is not authoritative. You have only proven you are well equipped as a soldier of sophism.

 

[gsvol]

You've obviously never studied Islam.

OK then, enlighten me, answer the questions I posed.

Was this before or after he defecated on GS's lawn, killed his puppy, slashed his tires and messed up his TeeVee box so's he can't get Fox News and Matlock anymore?

Didn't see that one coming. I'd say Americans are much more likely to be "brainwashed" to take up the cause for Israel.

And I would say you are dead wrong.

Two sites that can help dispel many of the myths that
most young people hold to be true:

Both articles are well worth reading in full.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0502/mideast_facts.html

The West Bank and Gaza (controlled by Jordan and
Egypt from 1948 to 1967) came under Israeli control
during the Six Day War of 1967 that started when
Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran and Arab armies amassed on Israel’s borders to invade and liquidate
the state.

It is important to note that during their
19-year rule, neither Jordan nor Egypt had
made any effort to establish a Palestinian
state on those lands.

Just before the Arab nations launched their war of
aggression against the State of Israel in 1967, Syrian
Defense Minister (later President) Hafez Assad
stated, "Our forces are now entirely ready . . . to
initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the
Zionist presence in the Arab homeland . . . the time
has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."

On the brink of the 1967 war, Egyptian President Gamal
Nassar declared, "Our basic objective will be the
destruction of Israel."

Because of their animus against Jews, many leaders
of the Palestinian cause have long supported our
enemies. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem allied himself
with Adolf Hitler during WWII.

Myths & Facts - The Refugees

The Arabs, meanwhile, adamantly refused to negotiate
a separate agreement. The crux of the issue was the
Arab states’ unwillingness to accept Israel’s existence.

The truth of the matter is that arabs who are called
palestinians have generally had a much better life under
the rule of the democratic Iraeli regime than ever under
the rule of arab states and even under the Turkish
ottoman rule that preceded that.

 

[gsvol]

Prior to election of Obama, I imagine gsvol and the insane bloggers he quotes would have given a rat's azz about Israel. But when it suits their "Obama is a A-rab Muslim" agenda, all of a sudden they are obsessed with it.

Not at all true in my case.

I've been interested very much since at least since the
1967 war and even before that really.

Riddle me this, why is it the arabs can't be happy
controling an area larger than the USA and not
let the Jews live in peace in a small area about
the size of Delaware???

On what basis is the Obama administration changing
the long standing policy toward Israel, in reality our
only ally in the whole region??

Why is the Obama administration selling 125 Abrams
tanks to the MB in Egypt, who are they expecting
to attack them, the Sudan??

Oh wait maybe they are expecting civil unreast.

This global trance of intellectual inversion, hallucinatory
bigotry and appeasement of terror could be broken
instantly if the big lies that sustain it were exposed
for the malevolent fictions that they are.

Historically incorrect. The only historically accurate thing to say regarding the lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region is that there was a lack of Arabic Muslim settlements in the region; they were nomads (which is where the term Arab comes from) that traversed the land and did not establish permanent settlements. That in no way implies that they had not been on that land for thousands of contiguous years.

Most of those who call themselves palestinians migrated
from neighboring arab states and had not been nomads
for at least a thousand years.

Arafat for instance was an Egyptian.

And Jews have been there continuously for 5,000
years.

The Zionist Movement certainly occurred before the Holocaust; mass Western sympathy for the "plight of the Jews" did not occur until after the Holocaust.

The state of Israel was established because of the
plight of the Jews to begin with.

You sound exactly like all the arabs I talked with
personally, face to face, right after the 1967 war
when they were smarting from a sound defeat in
a war that they initiated.

In 1947, the Jewish denizens of the Palestinian Mandate began a campaign of guerrilla warfare against both the Muslim denizens of the region and against the British. This campaign was to gain supremacy in the region prior to the exodus of the British; it worked.

Really???? Twenty percent of the inhabitants of
Israel are arabs who live with eqaul rights.

And how many pogroms had been initiated against
the Jews prior to that????

The arabs were given 77% of the land that was set
aside for the nation of Israel but couldn't be happy
with that and still insist that the state of Israel be
wiped out.

Feel free to provide any historical evidence that defeats my position.

I did that in the thread titled "history of modern Israel
vs moslem propaganda" which was deleted from this
board for as yet undetermined reasons.

That thread had 75 posts and the real facts were
presented vs the propaganda that so many believe
to be the truth these days.

Find two links in my post #73.

If you care to try to refute any particular claim in
either of those links then feel free to do so and
we will discuss that particular item.

 

[therealUT]

Yet in all your well written statements not one documented fact and only half truths to back up what you say. You use the bullet time and time again on this site that others do not back up what they say and I have never seen you do it...a general reference to large secondary sources is not authoritative. You have only proven you are well equipped as a soldier of sophism.

Simply because I direct you to actual books rather than blogs and/or Israeli sites (as you and GS tend to do), does not mean that what I am posting are half-truths. Read what I suggested, and for your edification, here is a particularly damning selection of text regarding the Israeli War of Independence:

In December 1946 - at the first post-war Zionist Congress in Basle - David Ben Gurion assumed the defense portfolio, including responsibility for the Haganah, which at the time concentrated on the struggle against the British.

Although British restrictions, searches and detentions made the building of a clandestine force - with armor and artillery, air and sea power - well-nigh impossible, Ben-Gurion decided early on that this was the decisive task

As was stated earlier, the Israeli's built a clandestine force when they could not have a conventional army; just as today, the Palestinians have a clandestine force when they are not allowed a conventional army.

Since import and deployment of heavy weapons were not practicable as long as the British held sway over Palestine, it was decided that manpower should be readied in the country and equipment purchased abroad

Is this sounding familiar, yet?

In the Second Phase (1 April - 15 May) the Haganah took the initiative, and in six weeks was able to turn the tables - capturing, inter alia, the Arab sections of Tiberias, Haifa and later also Safed and Acre

Arab sections? In Israel? This cannot be so!!!

In the end Israel not only ejected the invading Arab forces - it also captured and held some 5,000 km2 over and above the areas allocated to it by the United Nations.

Hmm...interesting, yes?

At the end of the war the IDF had over 100,000 full-time men and women in uniform, as compared to the mere handful of full-time soldiers at its beginning. In addition to 12 brigades, mostly infantry, it had several regiments of artillery. The first armored regiments were equipped with light armored vehicles, some captured, some "requisitioned" from the departing British troops; and a few tanks - two Cromwells "bought" from the withdrawing British and some reconstituted from American scrap.
The Navy consisted at first of reconverted illegal immigrant vessels. There were the elements of an Air Force - Spitfires and Messerschmidts, acquired mainly in Czechoslovakia, in addition to the light civilian planes which the Haganah had used for reconnaissance and communications purposes. Some World War II US war surplus bombers were bought as scrap. These carried out their first "strategic attack" on Cairo, en route to Israel, even before reaching their homebase. Armed with a Baedeker tourist guide, one of them bombed and strafed Abdeen Palace: rudimentary, to be sure, but entirely unexpected and, therefore, psychologically effective.

So, after the war was over, Israel bombed Cairo simply for a psychological victory...does this sound like terrorism to anyone else?

The infiltrations (of Palestinians) - however painful, militarily and diplomatically - were no more than a diversion from the main concern of the IDF: preparations for the second round.

Same could be said of the infiltration today.

Israel's numerical inferiority to its neighbors and potential enemies; its realization that because of the lack of strategic depth it was bound to transfer fighting as soon as possible to enemy territory and its proven advantage at swift, often improvised manoeuvers - all pointed to the need for armor. The newly found alliance with France at the time of the Suez crisis provided the unique opportunity to equip a major part of the IDF with French-made tanks.

Israel still operates off of this model and uses the most minor incidents to invade Palestine and Lebanon with their armor, effectively causing massive amounts of civilian casualties.