Obama proposes extending Bush tax cuts for 98 percent of us

#77
#77
Weezer said:
That's part of the problem. You speak of people getting back on their feet. Inflation has made that almost impossible. Look at retail for example, do you think most people in lower level retail make a liveable wage? What about fast food or even service staff in fine dining? Do you realize the number of jobs in those industries and that many people are forced into it because they have no other options. Factory jobs that paid better money have been shipped out of the country. Why? For profit. We're killing ourselves.
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inflated wages may have something to do with that

I will say that when I graduated and started a "real job" I actually took a pay cut from waiting tables. I worked my rear off and got paid well for it in tips. There were others that didn't and they weren't near my level. I left the job because I knew I could work hard at my next one and make a whole lot more if I worked at it. Turns out I was right but that didn't take breaks
 
#78
#78
utvolpj said:
you might want to keep your assumptions to yourself
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Why? When entire demographics have specific political leanings, it's blatantly clear that they believe in what's best for themselves, not society as a whole.
 
#79
#79
UTRavens said:
Why? When entire demographics have specific political leanings, it's blatantly clear that they believe in what's best for themselves, not society as a whole.
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I highly doubt you understand many people's political leanings on here and am sure you don't know their backgrounds. Making assumptions is just an easy way to make yourself look bad. Of course you're free to do as you wish
 
#80
#80
OrangeEmpire said:
Exception is wealth should be given to the underserving for no reason other than petty jealousy?
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Yeah, because when individuals and families are barely even able to feed themselves - or worse yet, not able to - they're clearly just being petty and jealous.
 
#81
#81
utvolpj said:
then get up and move on. If you work hard and do the things necessary you can provide for yourself. Once you get to a certain level you can start providing for your family. If you're an able-bodied person in the US and can barely support yourself then it's likely you're doing it wrong. You should also think about bringing others into your situation (that doesn't happen much either)
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I'm not talking about my situation but of course that's what you would assume. I'm far from rich but not struggling at the moment either. I haven't brought anyone into my situation as I'm not married nor do I have kids, but it's interesting to note you think only the successful should get married and have children. I understand the sentiment, but life doesn't work like that.
Your optimism is nice, but reality is harsher than you've been led to believe.
 
#82
#82
I have a cousin who is CEO of a major entdrtainment company. He is very much a self made man, son of immigrant parents, went to college on work study and academic scholarships, started in the mail room, the whole bit. Yes he has fancy cars, a nice home in the Village and another in the Hamptons, etc, etc. But, I have rarely seen him not working. When he rides in his fancy car, he is reading the endless stream of paperwork necessary to run a multi-national corp. He works at home, the office and in the Hamptons. And what is work? Making deals to expand the business. If he doesn't meet his growth goals, doesn't continue to add revenues and doesn't increase profits, then he is out. A large corporation can only do so much with saving on payroll or other cost reductions. Real money is made in expansion, which means building stuff and selling more products, in other words, jobs. If he isn't creating jobs, he is out.

Do I feel sorry for my jet setting cousin? Not a bit, but I would never want his job and at the same time I'm glad he is doing it successfully.
 
#84
#84
There are a few things I admire about libertarianism, and I do agree that a perfect world would be one with minimal government involvement in your life, provided humans were perfectly moral creatures (which they're obviously not). The problem with the libertarian "hard work" argument is its practicality. In other words, its practicality is its very impracticality. True, hard work goes a long way, and there are very few people in this country that can't achieve basic goals (like graduating college and finding a job) if they would just apply themselves. However, it's just not always that simple. Many of the people who make these kinds of arguments often come from environments wherein hard work (and perhaps even college) is encouraged. What about those people who don't come from such environments? Yes, I agree, they should want to work, but it just isn't that simple to motivate people sometimes who have been raised under different psychocultural circumstances. It's not to justify this kind of mentality, but just to attempt to complicate our notion of easy solutions to everything.

Furthermore, it's fine to say that people should work hard and will make their way in the world if they do so. It sounds nice, and, often this does work for many people. However, what do you do with women who still do not earn equal pay in many jobs even though it's 2012 the last time I checked? How is a single mother supposed to always make ends meet when this might be stacked up against here unfairly? Also, what do you do with minorities who don't always get hired to certain jobs? And yes, I know about Affirmative Action, but let's be honest, there are still some racist employers, even if it's as seemingly benign as simply being put off by an applicant with a name like "Shaniqua" or "Tyquan"? Hard work might have gotten these individuals past college and might have gotten them many things, but things could possibly still be set against them in some circumstances.

P.S. I don't need any reminders about Affirmative Action. I am completely aware of the practice, and, no, I don't always agree with it. Yes, sometimes it has been unfair to whites, but, then again, a higher percentage of whites come from environments that encourage college graduation than most people of color. I fully agree the middle to upper-middle-class minority family should not need affirmative action.
 
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#85
#85
Weezer said:
I'm not talking about my situation but of course that's what you would assume. I'm far from rich but not struggling at the moment either. I haven't brought anyone into my situation as I'm not married nor do I have kids, but it's interesting to note you think only the successful should get married and have children. I understand the sentiment, but life doesn't work like that.
Your optimism is nice, but reality is harsher than you've been led to believe.
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not really. The 'you' was general and not directed toward any certain person. Sorry of there was confusion

I never said only the successful but rather people need to figure out if they can provide before they bring in more mouths to feed. I had my first child last Oct and was 36yo. That's when I finally felt able to provide financially for his every need. It seems like too few consider that variable anymore
 
#88
#88
utvolpj said:
I highly doubt you understand many people's political leanings on here and am sure you don't know their backgrounds. Making assumptions is just an easy way to make yourself look bad. Of course you're free to do as you wish
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Says the person who's been running with the whole "poor people are lazy" schtick?

They aren't assumptions when they're backed up by facts. Republicans have specific bases and Democrats have specific bases. The need and desires of those bases are supported by fundamental conservative and liberal beliefs. It's not rocket surgery. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions - heck, I'm an exception. But when a political forum is extremely slanted towards a view that isn't the least bit unexpected for East Tennessee, it's not particularly hard to connect the dots. If that makes me look bad, whatever.
 
#89
#89
OrangeEmpire said:
Govt knows best!
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and that's the scary part. I can somewhat understand the thought that the rich should pay more. However wanting to give that money to the US govt and have them distribute as they see fit is a real head scratcher
 
#91
#91
utvolpj said:
inflated wages may have something to do with that

I will say that when I graduated and started a "real job" I actually took a pay cut from waiting tables. I worked my rear off and got paid well for it in tips. There were others that didn't and they weren't near my level. I left the job because I knew I could work hard at my next one and make a whole lot more if I worked at it. Turns out I was right but that didn't take breaks
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Fine, you're an exception, but that's not the norm. If you believe it is, I would dare say statistics would prove you wrong. Do I have a chart up my sleeve to prove it? No, but I do know many people who have worked hard and not been able to make it far. There are various reasons for that. Some really didn't work smart as you would say. Some didn't catch the breaks. I believe hard work is imperative no matter what you do, but it doesn't always lead to success.
 
#93
#93
utvolpj said:
and that's the scary part. I can somewhat understand the thought that the rich should pay more. However wanting to give that money to the US govt and have them distribute as they see fit is a real head scratcher
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Beyond me that govt is the solution to all our problems
 
#94
#94
UTRavens said:
I didn't miss the point at all. You used a very poor analogy that doesn't rely on nearly as many variables as economic disparity.
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Economic disparity won't be fixed by just taking more from the very successful and giving it to the least productive. Let's get rid of the entitlement mentality, address discrimination and oppression in effective ways, remove the ability to make excuses and encourage success at all levels.
 
#95
#95
YorkVol said:
Economic disparity won't be fixed by just taking more from the very successful and giving it to the least productive. Let's get rid of the entitlement mentality, address discrimination and oppression in effective ways, remove the ability to make excuses and encourage success at all levels.
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Politicians lose platforms and votes
 
#96
#96
YorkVol said:
Economic disparity won't be fixed by just taking more from the very successful and giving it to the least productive. Let's get rid of the entitlement mentality, address discrimination and oppression in effective ways, remove the ability to make excuses and encourage success at all levels.
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The bolded part is something we can all agree on. The unbolded isn't. "Successful" and "productive" are buzzwords that offer a misleading view - whether it's subtle or drastic - of the reality of the situation.
 
#99
#99
utvolpj said:
and that's the scary part. I can somewhat understand the thought that the rich should pay more. However wanting to give that money to the US govt and have them distribute as they see fit is a real head scratcher
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It's not about wanting to give the government anything. They're going to take it from someone, someway, somehow. Taking from the lower class makes them more destitute. Taking from the rich makes them less rich. If you continue to take, take, take, and eliminate the middle class, then what's to stop people from living off the govt teet? When working hard gets you no where, why continue to work hard? For what it's worth, I'd work hard no matter what, just out of pride and self-respect, but do you think most people would choose that route?
 
#100
#100
We can't even cut Saturday service for the post office. Social Security for anyone under 45 years old is basically a ponzi scheme. We can't even cut any waste or fraud and Obama brackers want people to pay more? The economy is a disaster. What a joke!
 
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