Obama to back religious freedom at Islam dinner

#126
#126
utvolpj said:
certain ones clarified what they felt the clause meant. Not sure what their thoughts on JC matter when discussing the Constitution. I don't think anyone is saying that many weren't Christian. The fact that many were yet left any talk of it out of the laws of the land is very telling IMO
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Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


Sure it matters what their thoughts were. You can't just take one set of thoughts and claim it as whole.
 
#127
#127
still have no idea how you connect this to their thoughts on Jesus. If anything you might be disappointed by some of the things they said/wrote
 
#128
#128
utvolpj said:
still have no idea how you connect this to their thoughts on Jesus. If anything you might be disappointed by some of the things they said/wrote
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Its their thoughts in total on their beliefs. Yes not all were Christians, I understand this. But they also came here not to have a state mandated church. They were about the freedom to worship as they wished. You have to answer who was it that they called,"endowed by our Creator". Who was that?
 
#129
#129
Oldvol75 said:
Its their thoughts in total on their beliefs. Yes not all were Christians, I understand this. But they also came here not to have a state mandated church. They were about the freedom to worship as they wished.
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which is the whole point. They also didn't want gov't favoring one over the other which is being advocated by many in this thread. They could separate their personal feelings enough to realize that the US gov't getting into the religion business was not a good thing

Oldvol75 said:
You have to answer who was it that they called,"endowed by our Creator". Who was that?
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that's the Dec of Ind which isn't US law
 
#130
#130
utvolpj said:
which is the whole point. They also didn't want gov't favoring one over the other which is being advocated by many in this thread. They could separate their personal feelings enough to realize that the US gov't getting into the religion business was not a good thing



that's the Dec of Ind which isn't US law
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No one is saying here that the US should get involved in religion. But the government has no right to say when or where myself or anyone else can worship, whatever their beliefs. The only beliefs that are beings infringed upon are Christianity and Judism. The Muslim religion gets special treatment, for example, the places that they have set up at the University of Michigan. They also do this in alot of public schools now. Are there such places in any public school in the US today where these same type of places are set up for Christians and Jews? Are Christians and Jews allowed to have a special place to pray while at school?

Did not the writers of the Constitution also write the Declaration of Independence? Again, if you choose one writing as too their thoughts, why not use all?
 
#131
#131
Oldvol75 said:
No one is saying here that the US should get involved in religion. But the government has no right to say when or where myself or anyone else can worship, whatever their beliefs. The only beliefs that are beings infringed upon are Christianity and Judism. The Muslim religion gets special treatment, for example, the places that they have set up at the University of Michigan. They also do this in alot of public schools now. Are there such places in any public school in the US today where these same type of places are set up for Christians and Jews? Are Christians and Jews allowed to have a special place to pray while at school?
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do Jews and Christians require a special place? Were their requests for a separate place turned down in favor of another? Does it at all stop a person from praying? Complain all you want but the rights of one group are not being infringed upon when another gets some too.

Oldvol75 said:
Did not the writers of the Constitution also write the Declaration of Independence? Again, if you choose one writing as too their thoughts, why not use all?
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good grief, yes they wrote it but it is not the law of the US. The founders specifically framed the Constitution in such a way as to not get into that discussion.
 
#132
#132
the problem is not the religion it's the culture that breeds hatred of freedoms and america in general. islam is hardly more radical than many of the religions our founding fathers practiced.
 
#134
#134
Oldvol75 said:
Its their thoughts in total on their beliefs. Yes not all were Christians, I understand this. But they also came here not to have a state mandated church. They were about the freedom to worship as they wished. You have to answer who was it that they called,"endowed by our Creator". Who was that?
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The Dec of Ind means nothing to many on here, even though it's our founding document.
 
#135
#135
Teachings of Muhammed advocate killing in the name of 'justice' (a quite vague term to be loosely interpreted). The teachings of Jesus are very passive and do not advocate killing in any regard. I'm seeing a 'radical' difference between the two.
 
#137
#137
CSpindizzy said:
Teachings of Muhammed advocate killing in the name of 'justice' (a quite vague term to be loosely interpreted). The teachings of Jesus are very passive and do not advocate killing in any regard. I'm seeing a 'radical' difference between the two.
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yes, but it's the interpretation that matters. many of the founding fathers took jesuses teachings to mean things today we would find ridiculous. particurally in the matter of personal freedoms, advancement of the human race, and women. the jewish religion has a pretty cruel text, but that hasn't seemed to have been a problem.
 
#138
#138
droski said:
yes, but it's the interpretation that matters. many of the founding fathers took jesuses teachings to mean things today we would find ridiculous. particurally in the matter of personal freedoms, advancement of the human race, and women. the jewish religion has a pretty cruel text, but that hasn't seemed to have been a problem.
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:huh:
 
#140
#140
utvolpj said:
do Jews and Christians require a special place? Were their requests for a separate place turned down in favor of another? Does it at all stop a person from praying? Complain all you want but the rights of one group are not being infringed upon when another gets some too.



good grief, yes they wrote it but it is not the law of the US. The founders specifically framed the Constitution in such a way as to not get into that discussion.
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Have not (school systems, mainly ACLU) say that you cannot pray in school? They don't even want a moment of scilence and are trying to stop that. But yet on the other hand say nothing at all in regards to setting up Muslim pray stations. I think that sets them apart in distinguishing between Judo/Christian and Muslims. Ones ok, ones not?


Yes I understand its not US law, no one said it was. But were the Authors of the Declaration, the same that wrote the Constitution? Plain and simple question. By declaring our Independence, were not these things that we sought for,"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", the goals of the Constitution?

The documents were written by our Founding Fathers, as you stated earlier, we used "ONE" document (That Is NOT law according to the Constitution) to determine Seperation of Church and State that we do "NOW" hold as law. Yet you say we cannot use any other documents to judge the Constitution by, strange?
 
#144
#144
Oldvol75 said:
Have not (school systems, mainly ACLU) say that you cannot pray in school? They don't even want a moment of scilence and are trying to stop that. But yet on the other hand say nothing at all in regards to setting up Muslim pray stations. I think that sets them apart in distinguishing between Judo/Christian and Muslims. Ones ok, ones not?


Yes I understand its not US law, no one said it was. But were the Authors of the Declaration, the same that wrote the Constitution? Plain and simple question. By declaring our Independence, were not these things that we sought for,"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", the goals of the Constitution?

The documents were written by our Founding Fathers, as you stated earlier, we used "ONE" document (That Is NOT law according to the Constitution) to determine Seperation of Church and State that we do "NOW" hold as law. Yet you say we cannot use any other documents to judge the Constitution by, strange?
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Seperation of church and state shouldn't be an issue for a christian.

US christians worry about gov't spreading the gospel for them rather going to their neighbor.

Gov't has no business establishing any sort of religion or favoring one over the other. In the end, freedom is every thing.
 
#146
#146
droski said:
yes, but it's the interpretation that matters. many of the founding fathers took jesuses teachings to mean things today we would find ridiculous. particurally in the matter of personal freedoms, advancement of the human race, and women. the jewish religion has a pretty cruel text, but that hasn't seemed to have been a problem.
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But please tell me where advocating killing compares to turning the other cheek? One teaching clearly states killing is a form of act endorsed within those teachings. Last I checked Jesus did not command killing of any sort by his followers. Killing was not even an option. This is not stretching interpretation of a woman being at home barefoot and pregnant. This is "it is ok to kill in response to being persecuted". Very confrontational and violent in response to being persecuted if you ask me.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
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#147
#147
OrangeEmpire said:
Seperation of church and state shouldn't be an issue for a christian.

US christians worry about gov't spreading the gospel for them rather going to their neighbor.

Gov't has no business establishing any sort of religion or favoring one over the other. In the end, freedom is every thing.
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bingo do you really want the govt in charge of teaching your children the gospel?
 
#148
#148
OrangeEmpire said:
Seperation of church and state shouldn't be an issue for a christian.

US christians worry about gov't spreading the gospel for them rather going to their neighbor.

Gov't has no business establishing any sort of religion or favoring one over the other. In the end, freedom is every thing.
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Oh, trust me, I in no way, shape or form want the government telling who, what or where to worship. Just pointing out a few things where the government says one thing, yet does another.
 
#149
#149
You don't want them saying this religion is preferred and you cannot practice your beliefs.

It is like defining marriage, do you really want gov't to define marriage and if things go how you don't like, pastors can be prosecuted from their pulpit for hate language,etc.
 
#150
#150
Oldvol75 said:
Oh, trust me, I in no way, shape or form want the government telling who, what or where to worship. Just pointing out a few things where the government says one thing, yet does another.
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Live by gov't = failure and every thing works just fine.

Keep the power in the hands of the people and every thing will be fine.
 
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