Omnipotence and Omnibenevolence

#26
#26
Lexvol said:
From the early allegorical accounts just about everything was wholesome/pure/holy(for the evangelicals on the board). 9 out of 10 options were in fact wholesome and perfect, yet in humanity with the free will chose the 10% over the 90.
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Even if it was 99.9% good choices, the other .1% would pose the same problem, in my opinion.
 
#27
#27
sjt18 said:
That is not apparent when he uses terms like "myth" and worse to mock Christians and Christianity.
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Why do the terms "myth" and "mythology" bother you? I am not going to patronize you by referring to it as "truth" when you know full well that I do not see it that way. If you provide a term that you would like for me to use, I will use it.
 
#29
#29
tvolsfan said:
What do you think about the religion and the bible itself? Just curious.
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I think for the most part, religions have done well to try to alleviate suffering in the world and offer suffering individuals (all humans) hope. Unfortunately, I also tend to think that persons who blindly believe in absolutes can be easily exploited by zealots; this, in my opinion, has led to some very horrendous atrocities throughout history (to include Soviet atrocities, as many Bolsheviks were blindly committed to absolute communist ideology, etc.).

As for the Bible, I think it is, for the most part, a pretty decent anthology for how one should live their life. Unfortunately, there are also certain books, chapters, and verses that I find to be absolutely reprehensible, especially in light of the fact that some believe this is an authoritative and divinely inspired book meant to show, throughout its entirety (to include the reprehensible parts), how one should live their life to win favor with their God.
 
#30
#30
therealUT said:
Even if it was 99.9% good choices, the other .1% would pose the same problem, in my opinion.
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I agree. Evil is a tremendous problem to solve or reconcile for any one remotely interested in theology. There are no easy answers.
 
#31
#31
therealUT said:
Fundamentally, I cannot reconcile these views with the presumption that God is omnibenevolent. Either he created evil, which would, in my opinion, reduce his "pure-goodness" or, as you stated, he is not "responsible for it", which would reduce his omnipotence (or, if he allowed it but did not create it, again this poses a threat to his goodness).
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If it were within your power to force your child to behave as if they loved you but gave that child a choice only to have that child reject you and the rules you designed for his good... would you be responsible for his choice? Would your power to force him have been diminished by your choice to tolerate a real choice by him?

The only persuasive arguments I have seen for theism, regarding "evil", is that "evil" does not exist. Augustine posits such a line of thought in The Confessions and then makes a logical defense of it. Personally, I think that without omniscience, humans can never state that evil actually exists; we can only state that what we perceive to be evil exists, yet we do not know all the circumstances surrounding these "evil events/sufferings" and, therefore, cannot conclusively state that evil does exist.
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I could never accept such an argument since evil is both apparent and declared by the Bible to be rebellion against God.

Unfortunately, central tenets of all the major religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) are that evil does exist. This is another reason that, unless I receive a compelling and personal revelation, I cannot be a religious.
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God gave you a mind instead. You may choose to believe. You may choose to remain in rebellion. You are not in a position to demand that God provide you with another way.
 
#32
#32
therealUT said:
As for the Bible, I think it is, for the most part, a pretty decent anthology for how one should live their life. Unfortunately, there are also certain books, chapters, and verses that I find to be absolutely reprehensible, especially in light of the fact that some believe this is an authoritative and divinely inspired book meant to show, throughout its entirety (to include the reprehensible parts), how one should live their life to win favor with their God.
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Thomas Jefferson just smiled.
 
#33
#33
Lexvol said:
I agree. Evil is a tremendous problem to solve or reconcile for any one remotely interested in theology. There are no easy answers.
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I have never seen a direct defense against the Epicurean Problem of Evil. I am a big C.S. Lewis fan and I enjoy his writing style and the way he thinks about things, yet he still, in Problem of Pain, goes the Red Herring route of how suffering and evil give certain individuals the opportunity to be good. This in no way answers the question of why people cannot be good or cannot choose or not choose to worship God without evil being an option.

Couldn't God still choose to send those who chose not to offer him praise and worship to either Hell or Purgatory, to be cleansed of their sin of not worshipping? Couldn't this be done without any other sufferring being inflicted upon anyone other than the one who chooses not to worship?
 
#34
#34
sjt18 said:
If it were within your power to force your child to behave as if they loved you but gave that child a choice only to have that child reject you and the rules you designed for his good... would you be responsible for his choice? Would your power to force him have been diminished by your choice to tolerate a real choice by him?
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If his choices could not include "evil" choices, this would not be an issue. I do not have the power to keep "evil" out of the universe. I am not asking individuals to worship me; I am not, ultimately, allowing the overwhelming majority of suffering in the world. If I had a choice, as a parent, I would want my child to never have to encounter evil.

sjt18 said:
I could never accept such an argument since evil is both apparent and declared by the Bible to be rebellion against God.
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You should probably at least look at the argument before rejecting it.

sjt18 said:
God gave you a mind instead. You may choose to believe. You may choose to remain in rebellion. You are not in a position to demand that God provide you with another way.
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I cannot choose to believe or disbelieve. I can choose not to be religious and not to be a full participant and not to pledge myself as a full participant in any such religion.
 
#35
#35
therealUT said:
I have never seen a direct defense against the Epicurean Problem of Evil. I am a big C.S. Lewis fan and I enjoy his writing style and the way he thinks about things, yet he still, in Problem of Pain, goes the Red Herring route of how suffering and evil give certain individuals the opportunity to be good. This in no way answers the question of why people cannot be good or cannot choose or not choose to worship God without evil being an option.

Couldn't God still choose to send those who chose not to offer him praise and worship to either Hell or Purgatory, to be cleansed of their sin of not worshipping? Couldn't this be done without any other sufferring being inflicted upon anyone other than the one who chooses not to worship?
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Lewis reconciled that sufficiently enough for me in The Great Divorce.
 
#37
#37
One thing is for sure. This is going to be one heck of a headline: Volnation Solves Ancient Problem of Evil.

I'll try to get on in a bit and give a few of my evangelical, semi-Reformed thoughts on the matter, if anyone cares.
 
#41
#41
therealUT said:
The Gospel today was a selection from Matthew 13, the wheat and the weeds. My questions are, assuming God is the Master in the parable:

If Satan sews the weeds in the night, then are all sinners Satan's creation?

Does Christian theology say that all humans are sinners?

Are all humans part of Satan's creation?

Can God, an omnibenevolent being, create evil?

If not, then should God, an omnibenevolent being, do everything in his power to keep evil from being created?

If so, then is God omnipotent, if evil exists?

Does evil exist?
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The true question would be, does evil truly exist?

To most of us, the existence of evil appears to be undeniable.

Cold and darkness would fit into our world of existing but truly doesn't exist. Cold is just the absence of heat. Darkness is just the absence of light.

We have created cold to describe how we feel if we have no heat and Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present

Evil is simply the absence of Good. Since we have the power of free will, people create the "evil" in the world and not a higher power.
 
#42
#42
Volst53 said:
Evil is simply the absence of Good. Since we have the power of free will, people create the "evil" in the world and not a higher power.
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I tend to agree and Augustine uses this line of thinking in his logical deconstruction of "evil"; however, these religions hold the evil is real, not nominal, and absolute. For these religions, it is not simply an absence, it is its own force.
 
#44
#44
therealUT said:
I tend to agree and Augustine uses this line of thinking in his logical deconstruction of "evil"; however, these religions hold the evil is real, not nominal, and absolute. For these religions, it is not simply an absence, it is its own force.
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It is real in a religious sense, but only in the same way cold is real to a man without a coat.
 
#45
#45
therealUT said:
I tend to agree and Augustine uses this line of thinking in his logical deconstruction of "evil"; however, these religions hold the evil is real, not nominal, and absolute. For these religions, it is not simply an absence, it is its own force.
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The consequences of the "absence of good" are real. In context this really ends up in a discussion of the eternal nature of "hell" for me.
 
#46
#46
Lexvol said:
The consequences of the "absence of good" are real. In context this really ends up in a discussion of the eternal nature of "hell" for me.
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In which a complete absence of God turns into a far worse issue than any flame.
 
#48
#48
My take on Wheat & Weeds: I understand it to mean truth. God sows seeds of truth, or, how he wants to be worshiped. Satan sows seeds of falsehood, or teachings that defy God. The illustration says that both are allowed to grow until its obvious which is wheat, and which are weeds. I understand this to mean that someday all false teachings/religions, from God's standpoint, will be gone and the true one will be left standing. Imo.
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#50
#50
therealUT said:
If his choices could not include "evil" choices, this would not be an issue. I do not have the power to keep "evil" out of the universe. I am not asking individuals to worship me; I am not, ultimately, allowing the overwhelming majority of suffering in the world. If I had a choice, as a parent, I would want my child to never have to encounter evil.
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You are attempting to extend the analogy well past its intent. The fundatmental issue is that God chose (as is his right Romans 9) to give man a choice so that man through that choice might show genuine love and glorify God. Regardless of how you accomplish it... there is no glory in being "loved" and obeyed by those who cannot choose otherwise.

You should probably at least look at the argument before rejecting it.
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What makes you think I haven't? I am not sure how the logical end of such thinking cannot be nihilism, anarchy, social disorder, etc. Once you declare that all things are "amoral" then the deeds of Susan Smith are just as "good" and worthy as those of a mother who dies to save her children from a house fire.

You very apparently do NOT accept this view in application. Otherwise, you would have no basis for saying anything was "wrong". For instance, you have shown no hesitation in declaring opposition to homosexual marriage "evil". If there is no evil... you should have never spoken a word on it.


I cannot choose to believe or disbelieve.
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Your actions and words here directly contradict that. You said yourself that you will not believe unless you receive a personal revelation. You HAVE chosen disbelief.
I can choose not to be religious and not to be a full participant and not to pledge myself as a full participant in any such religion.
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I don't and won't sell you religion. Genuine Christianity is about a relationship, not forms, icons, ceremonies, robes, church buildings, etc.
 
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