Omnipotence and Omnibenevolence

#51
#51
therealUT said:
I tend to agree and Augustine uses this line of thinking in his logical deconstruction of "evil"; however, these religions hold the evil is real, not nominal, and absolute. For these religions, it is not simply an absence, it is its own force.
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Absence of good might be the starting point but Dahmer killing and eating other people was not simply an "absence of good".

However, "evil" is not "its own". It is the "actions" of a free moral agent acting against "good" or more specifically acting in the absence of "God".
 
#52
#52
NYYVol said:
In which a complete absence of God turns into a far worse issue than any flame.
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While I do believe in real physical suffering in hell, the absence of the general grace bestowed by God on all creation is unimaginable. We take it all for granted.
 
#53
#53
Man is inherently self-serving. This can often lead to 'evil' acts and circumstance.

In reference to Dahmer - I'm not sure how you can quantify brain disease as 'evil' or 'an absence of good'.
 
#54
#54
KiffinKiller said:
Man is inherently self-serving. This can often lead to 'evil' acts and circumstance.

In reference to Dahmer - I'm not sure how you can quantify brain disease as 'evil' or 'an absence of good'.
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Dahmer made a series of choices. You can name it anything you like but his actions were volitional.

I actually run into this quite often. Someone will blurt out a curse or hateful phrase then say, "I didn't mean to say that". The truth is that while they may have never meant for it to come out... it is an expression of thoughts and attitudes that have been carefully or carelessly constructed.

Dahmer may have felt "compelled" at the time he committed his crimes. However, his early decisions even according to his own words were because he wanted to do it.
 
#55
#55
sjt18 said:
Absence of good might be the starting point but Dahmer killing and eating other people was not simply an "absence of good".
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Then, God created evil and is not an omnibenevolent being; or, God allowed evil and is not an omnibenevolent being if he is also omnipotent; or, God could not keep evil from being in the world and is therefore not omnipotent.

If choosing to believe was even a possibility, I would not worship nor praise a being that was not omnibenevolent, no matter what the outcome would be. If there is an omnipotent being that was not omnibenevolent, then praise and worship would be false and would simply be down payments on salvation, something that seems pretty self-serving and not virtuous, in my opinion.
 
#56
#56
therealUT said:
Then, God created evil and is not an omnibenevolent being; or, God allowed evil and is not an omnibenevolent being if he is also omnipotent; or, God could not keep evil from being in the world and is therefore not omnipotent.

If choosing to believe was even a possibility, I would not worship nor praise a being that was not omnibenevolent, no matter what the outcome would be. If there is an omnipotent being that was not omnibenevolent, then praise and worship would be false and would simply be down payments on salvation, something that seems pretty self-serving and not virtuous, in my opinion.
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The book of Job tells that god isn't omnibenevolent.
 
#57
#57
sjt18 said:
Dahmer made a series of choices. You can name it anything you like but his actions were volitional.

I actually run into this quite often. Someone will blurt out a curse or hateful phrase then say, "I didn't mean to say that". The truth is that while they may have never meant for it to come out... it is an expression of thoughts and attitudes that have been carefully or carelessly constructed.

Dahmer may have felt "compelled" at the time he committed his crimes. However, his early decisions even according to his own words were because he wanted to do it.
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My point is his choices were the result of mental issues (chemical imbalance, synapse issues, etc.). Serial Killer brains are different. Psychopathy isn't a choice.
 
#58
#58
therealUT said:
If there is an omnipotent being that was not omnibenevolent, then praise and worship would be false and would simply be down payments on salvation, something that seems pretty self-serving and not virtuous, in my opinion.
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This is an interesting paradox - it seems then that not praising and worshiping is actually the more virtuous route and thus more likely to lead to salvation - unless you are not praising and worshiping on purpose just to get salvation which is not virtuous - oh crap.

I'm probably completely screwed but I see the route to salvation through the manner in which you live your life. If you live a karma-positive life then in effect you are living for God and the praise/worship is icing on the cake but won't make up for bad choices.
 
#64
#64
JayVols said:
trut's good people. Talk with a person for a while and you get to know their heart. He is more than capable of defending himself, but many of you have this atheistic mocking heathen picture of him. That's not true. (Sorry if I messed up your image, man).

As to the question, I don't know the answer for sure. The way I understand is that God didn't create evil, but allows Satan to 'do his thing' on earth. If God had wanted automatons to walk around praising him, he would have created them. IMO, it is so much more special for one to choose to believe and follow rather than have no choice. My thoughts that are not intended to be taken as concrete facts.
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Have to agree on TRUT. Had my arguments with him in the past, but he searches for the truth and so do I. We just have different interpretations of it, but respect his study and viewpoints. As to the questions at hand, I would tend to agree with you. God does not create evil, but at the same time he made us beings of free choice to either choose to follow him or not follow. If your belief is programmed vs. learned or attained what gain is it for the person or for God.
 
#65
#65
It has been a few years, hasn't it, GVF? Those discussions were back in the glory days of VN.
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#70
#70
I had a girl come to my door the other day and give me a pamphlet. She said their church 'is against poverty and other bad things like that'. I laughed silently to myself.
 
#74
#74
KiffinKiller said:
good for you? people pushing their beliefs on me make me uncomfortable - strange that this helped you.
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Underlying message is that as long as JoeVol can continue to make other individuals uncomfortable he can continue to strengthen his faith; therefore, the logical thing for JoeVol to do, according to his premise, is attempt to make as many persons uncomfortable as he possibly can.

Charity?
 
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