Peace-loving and religiously tolerant Muslims in Egypt

#251
#251
therealUT said:
Interesting that Iran and China seem to negotiate and co-exist quite nicely...
Click to expand...

They have a common adversary/rival and see cooperation as a mutually beneficial thing... sort of like Hitler and Stalin at the beginning of WWII.

If you think that Islamic extremism isn't the number one threat to the rights and freedoms of people right now then there is really no help for you. You don't have to believe or even listen to me... Listen to them!
 
#252
#252
therealUT said:
In that case, all the Christian Right-Wingers who desire and/or call for the extermination of Muslims are the same as the Muslims who actually carry out that desire.
Click to expand...

Which Christian Right-Wingers are those? Be specific and I will join you in denouncing them. The more fundamental/conservative/"right-wing" a Christian is the more literally he will take the NT. The more literally he takes the NT the less likely he would EVER kill or use force to advance his religion. A true NT Christian warrior is willing to die... but not kill for his faith.

The more fundamental a Muslim is (believing the Koran literally), the more likely he is to accept the notion that force, oppression, or violence are acceptable means of expanding the House of Islam.
 
#253
#253
sjt18 said:
They have a common adversary/rival and see cooperation as a mutually beneficial thing... sort of like Hitler and Stalin at the beginning of WWII.

If you think that Islamic extremism isn't the number one threat to the rights and freedoms of people right now then there is really no help for you. You don't have to believe or even listen to me... Listen to them!
Click to expand...

You said that they neither negotiate nor co-exist. They obviously do.

I definitely do not think that Islamic extremism is the number one threat to my rights and freedom. Reactionary, paranoid, moralistic, and power-hungry lawmakers are the number threat to my rights and freedoms. Most of them are White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
 
#254
#254
sjt18 said:
Which Christian Right-Wingers are those? Be specific and I will join you in denouncing them. The more fundamental/conservative/"right-wing" a Christian is the more literally he will take the NT. The more literally he takes the NT the less likely he would EVER kill or use force to advance his religion. A true NT Christian warrior is willing to die... but not kill for his faith.

The more fundamental a Muslim is (believing the Koran literally), the more likely he is to accept the notion that force, oppression, or violence are acceptable means of expanding the House of Islam.
Click to expand...

Aside from Martin Luther, John Calvin, Oliver Cromwell, Pat Roberts, etc., etc., ad infinitum...
 
#255
#255
therealUT said:
In that case, all the Christian Right-Wingers who desire and/or call for the extermination of Muslims are the same as the Muslims who actually carry out that desire.
Click to expand...

In response to your Rwanda post I actually thought of that myself but again...I'm not thinking tribal civil war is really in the context of apples to apples here.

As for your above observation I would have to agree, "extermination of Muslims" is a pretty silly way to look at the problem to me. (though I'll be damned if I've heard that brought up by any Christians I know regardless of how "right wing" see them as being)
 
#256
#256
hndog609 said:
In response to your Rwanda post I actually thought of that myself but again...I'm not thinking tribal civil war is really in the context of apples to apples here.
Click to expand...

A large coterie of Christians committing genocide against non-Christians, while the Christian world declines to intervene, and takes a painstakingly long time before it decides to admonish, or condemn the actions is not simply tribal civil war. It was genocide. It was motivated by history and religion. It was not universally condemned by the rest of the Christian world.

Not apples to oranges.
 
#257
#257
therealUT said:
A large coterie of Christians committing genocide against non-Christians, while the Christian world declines to intervene, and takes a painstakingly long time before it decides to admonish, or condemn the actions is not simply tribal civil war. It was genocide. It was motivated by history and religion. It was not universally condemned by the rest of the Christian world.

Not apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

So the Hutu/Tutsi thing was religiously based and, moreover, it was Christians committing the genocide?

Far be it from me to claim I know everything but this is the first I've ever heard of such a claim. I'm dead serious when I say I'd appreciate any credible links describing this.
 
#258
#258
hndog609 said:
So the Hutu/Tutsi thing was religiously based and, moreover, it was Christians committing the genocide?

Far be it from me to claim I know everything but this is the first I've ever heard of such a claim. I'm dead serious when I say I'd appreciate any credible links describing this.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, the Hutu/Tutsi conflict had its roots in colonial times. the Tutsi were made the privileged class while the Hutu were relegated to the lowest rungs of society. This angst continued to fester and build until the bloodshed.

As for religion, most of Rwanda is Christian. However, as I understand it, the Hutu view and have viewed the Tutsi as Christian in name only (or, also known in American as C & E Christians, for those who only really attend services on Christmas and Easter). This led to proclamations by Hutu leaders, to include some clergy, that it was their duty, revealed by God and the Virgin Mary, to wipe out the Tutsi.

Many local religious authorities abdicated their posts or simply denied help Tutsi populations. True, some of this was out of fear of being killed themselves, yet, I believe most was out of complicity (whether religious or ethnic; most of the clergy would have come from the lower classes and would have been brought up with the same angst against the Tutsi).

It is certainly tough to completely classify as religious. However, the religious authorities certainly did not help matters by failing to condemn and failing to intervene effectively.

The Organization (HRW Report - Leave None to Tell the Story: Genocide in Rwanda, March 1999)

I would say that most of the people who are labeled as "Islamic Extremists" are not so much in it for the religious aspect as they are due to socio-economic reasons.
 
#259
#259
therealUT said:
You said that they neither negotiate nor co-exist. They obviously do.
Click to expand...
Are you ignorant or just playing ignorant? Serious question not intended to be as offensive as it may read.

Muslim doctrine defines a process by which they can enter into agreements with infidels that they have no intentions of keeping for the express purpose of gaining an advantage. The Koran allows Muslims to lie to infidels to advance the cause of Islam.

I definitely do not think that Islamic extremism is the number one threat to my rights and freedom. Reactionary, paranoid, moralistic, and power-hungry lawmakers are the number threat to my rights and freedoms. Most of them are White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
Click to expand...

Simply put... nope.

Do I believe that some are using the threat for a power grab? Without question. That isn't a new phenomenon. During the Progressive era, the Soviet threat was used to usurp or diminish a whole host of Constitutional rights. Is the Islamist threat real and imminent? Without question. Western Europe has changed radically in that regard in less than 20 years.
 
#260
#260
therealUT said:
As I understand it, the Hutu/Tutsi conflict had its roots in colonial times. the Tutsi were made the privileged class while the Hutu were relegated to the lowest rungs of society. This angst continued to fester and build until the bloodshed.

As for religion, most of Rwanda is Christian. However, as I understand it, the Hutu view and have viewed the Tutsi as Christian in name only (or, also known in American as C & E Christians, for those who only really attend services on Christmas and Easter). This led to proclamations by Hutu leaders, to include some clergy, that it was their duty, revealed by God and the Virgin Mary, to wipe out the Tutsi.

Many local religious authorities abdicated their posts or simply denied help Tutsi populations. True, some of this was out of fear of being killed themselves, yet, I believe most was out of complicity (whether religious or ethnic; most of the clergy would have come from the lower classes and would have been brought up with the same angst against the Tutsi).

It is certainly tough to completely classify as religious. However, the religious authorities certainly did not help matters by failing to condemn and failing to intervene effectively.

The Organization (HRW Report - Leave None to Tell the Story: Genocide in Rwanda, March 1999)

I would say that most of the people who are labeled as "Islamic Extremists" are not so much in it for the religious aspect as they are due to socio-economic reasons.
Click to expand...

Appreciate it but Rwanda still strikes me as a much more of an ethnic issue than religious and, more germane to the intent of my original post, (though probably poorly expressed) quite singularly geographical in nature as opposed to the Islamic extremism issue.

I'm really not wanting to get this to expand to where we're debating if a bar brawl between Ford vs Chevy guys constitutes ideological violence. Instead ask yourself this; do you think we US citizens are getting groped and scanned at airports because of worries about Hutus or Tutsis? Radical Islam is not bound by any ethnicity or geography. Violence in the name of Islamic beliefs is neither rare nor isolated...this is what I'm saying. This is NOT to be confused with me believing "Muslim=Terrorist" or anything even remotely like it but, c'mon man, it's not like pointing out that when there ARE acts of terrorism (and let's please not go careening down the semantics path with that one again) you aren't going to find an awfully strong participatory association with Islam.
 
#261
#261
hndog609 said:
Appreciate it but Rwanda still strikes me as a much more of an ethnic issue than religious and, more germane to the intent of my original post, (though probably poorly expressed) quite singularly geographical in nature as opposed to the Islamic extremism issue.

I'm really not wanting to get this to expand to where we're debating if a bar brawl between Ford vs Chevy guys constitutes ideological violence. Instead ask yourself this; do you think we US citizens are getting groped and scanned at airports because of worries about Hutus or Tutsis? Radical Islam is not bound by any ethnicity or geography. Violence in the name of Islamic beliefs is neither rare nor isolated...this is what I'm saying. This is NOT to be confused with me believing "Muslim=Terrorist" or anything even remotely like it but, c'mon man, it's not like pointing out that when there ARE acts of terrorism (and let's please not go careening down the semantics path with that one again) you aren't going to find an awfully strong participatory association with Islam.
Click to expand...

Most terrorists that will be labeled as so, in this day in age, happen to be associated in some manner with the religion of Islam. However, I still argue that for the actual people who are executing these plans, the "tip of the spear" so to speak, it is a socio-economic issue. The problem is not religion; it is ignorance.

The people in power, those who claim to want to wipe out the West due to a firm belief in Islam, usually have an ulterior motive: power and wealth. They know that they can use religion as a means to persuade the ignorant and desperate lower classes to give up their lives. They spend vast amounts of time and money creating ceremonies for "martyrs" that instill a sense of honor and purpose in lives that for the most part seem to have little to no purpose.

For a kid who grows up in the slums of Palestine, Baghdad, Bayji, etc., life is pretty bleak. There is certainly not much hope for fame or fortune in this life. Power brokers make empty promises and send these kids to their deaths. If religion were really the culprit, don't you think that the Imams and the Sheiks would be martyring themselves? They aren't though. They are selecting others to do so, while they continue to gain power, prestige, and money.

This currently happens in the Muslim world due to the severe stratification there. There are oil tycoons there who have wealth that you could never imagine. A block away there are slums and **** moats.
 
#262
#262
therealUT, I marvel at the left concerning this issue in the context of how fundamental/conservative Christians are viewed.

Christians have a firm belief that their mission is to try to convert the whole world to Christ by convincing them that the gospel is true... and you guys absolutely hate them. Islamists have a firm belief that their mission is to convert the whole world by any means necessary including killing those who get in the way... and you guys rationalize for them.

Islamists do the things that you all accuse Christians of doing like oppressing minorities, abusing women, oppressing homosexuals, muzzling free speech, hoarding wealth, etc... and you bend over backward to give the "majority" the benefit of the doubt. All the while you falsely accuse Christians of "hating".

Simple question: Why?
 
#263
#263
therealUT said:
Most terrorists that will be labeled as so, in this day in age, happen to be associated in some manner with the religion of Islam. However, I still argue that for the actual people who are executing these plans, the "tip of the spear" so to speak, it is a socio-economic issue. The problem is not religion; it is ignorance.

The people in power, those who claim to want to wipe out the West due to a firm belief in Islam, usually have an ulterior motive: power and wealth. They know that they can use religion as a means to persuade the ignorant and desperate lower classes to give up their lives. They spend vast amounts of time and money creating ceremonies for "martyrs" that instill a sense of honor and purpose in lives that for the most part seem to have little to no purpose.



For a kid who grows up in the slums of Palestine, Baghdad, Bayji, etc., life is pretty bleak. There is certainly not much hope for fame or fortune in this life. Power brokers make empty promises and send these kids to their deaths. If religion were really the culprit, don't you think that the Imams and the Sheiks would be martyring themselves? They aren't though. They are selecting others to do so, while they continue to gain power, prestige, and money.

This currently happens in the Muslim world due to the severe stratification there. There are oil tycoons there who have wealth that you could never imagine. A block away there are slums and **** moats.
Click to expand...

While I actually think you make some pretty viable points here we still have a bit of an issue...even if you don't really think of Islam as being the "problem" per se wouldn't you have just described it, at least in it's more radical form, as being used as a facilitator for violence? I guess what I'm asking is what difference does it really make to a victim how things came about if the last thing they hear is "Allah Akbar!"?
 
#264
#264
sjt18 said:
therealUT, I marvel at the left concerning this issue in the context of how fundamental/conservative Christians are viewed.

Christians have a firm belief that their mission is to try to convert the whole world to Christ by convincing them that the gospel is true... and you guys absolutely hate them. Islamists have a firm belief that their mission is to convert the whole world by any means necessary including killing those who get in the way... and you guys rationalize for them.

Islamists do the things that you all accuse Christians of doing like oppressing minorities, abusing women, oppressing homosexuals, muzzling free speech, hoarding wealth, etc... and you bend over backward to give the "majority" the benefit of the doubt. All the while you falsely accuse Christians of "hating".

Simple question: Why?
Click to expand...

I don't give Islam a free pass. In fact, I say it is just as bad (or, no worse) than Judaism and Christianity.

I find the hypocrisy from the Christian Right funny, ironic, and ludicrous when it comes to this, though.

Christians routinely picket at abortion clinics, or protest abortion on college campuses by displaying grotesque and perverse pictures. Yet, people who work and go to abortion clinics are doing so within the confines of the law. Christians are in word and in deed offending and hurting their businesses simply because those people do not succumb to Christian norms and morals (same can be said of homosexuality). Then, a few radical Christians kill an abortion doctor in a church, or bomb an abortion clinic (certainly killing both practitioners and babies in the process), and the majority of the Christian Right say those people are outliers; they are radical. Yet, the protests don't ever stop.

Muslims throughout the world protest Western, progressive values. They do so by chanting in streets and burning American flags. When a handful of Islamic radicals attacks an area, the Christian Right blames all of Islam.

I have a problem with that.
 
#265
#265
therealUT said:
I don't give Islam a free pass. In fact, I say it is just as bad (or, no worse) than Judaism and Christianity.

I find the hypocrisy from the Christian Right funny, ironic, and ludicrous when it comes to this, though.

Christians routinely picket at abortion clinics, or protest abortion on college campuses by displaying grotesque and perverse pictures. Yet, people who work and go to abortion clinics are doing so within the confines of the law. Christians are in word and in deed offending and hurting their businesses simply because those people do not succumb to Christian norms and morals (same can be said of homosexuality). Then, a few radical Christians kill an abortion doctor in a church, or bomb an abortion clinic (certainly killing both practitioners and babies in the process), and the majority of the Christian Right say those people are outliers; they are radical. Yet, the protests don't ever stop.

Muslims throughout the world protest Western, progressive values. They do so by chanting in streets and burning American flags. When a handful of Islamic radicals attacks an area, the Christian Right blames all of Islam.

I have a problem with that.
Click to expand...

You're not offended by babies getting chopped into little pieces but you are offended by protesters displaying the images of such slain babies?
 
#266
#266
azVolFan said:
You're not offended by babies getting chopped into little pieces but you are offended by protesters displaying the images of such slain babies?
Click to expand...

As I would not be offended by anyone having any type of sex, but I would be offended by someone shoving it in my face.

Nice attempt.
 
#268
#268
azVolFan said:
I don't want to be reminded of the gruesomeness of abortion either.
Click to expand...

Do you think abortions will stop or become less greusome if outlawed? Abortions have taken place for thousands of years and they will continue for thousands more.

If the issue is federal funding, then I agree. I don't want my tax dollars spent for that. I also don't want my tax dollars spent on war, either.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#270
#270
IDF hunting for perpetrators of brutal Itamar killings

A mother, father and three of their children were stabbed to death late Friday night by at least one suspected terrorist who infiltrated the Itamar settlement southeast of Nablus.

The killings occurred shortly after 10 p.m., when one or two attackers jumped the fence that surrounds Itamar and broke into the home of Ruth and Udi Fogel, aged 35 and 36, respectively. The attackers went room to room, stabbing the parents, a three-month-old girl, Hadas, and two boys, Elad, three, and Yoav, 11.
Click to expand...

I bet the perpetrators weren't radical Christians.
 
#272
#272
therealUT said:
Fair enough. I bet the people who murdered Matthew Shephard and James Byrd were raised Christian, though...

Wait, I don't bet that, I know that.
Click to expand...

How many Christians cheered in the streets after their death?

How many Muslims cheered in the streets after 9/11?
 
#275
#275
gsvol said:
You must have been watching 'Little Mosque on the Prairie?'

I got your handfull hanging!!!!

We're talking about Egypt here but maybe you can explain the Christian genocide in Bosnia, Kosovo, Nigeria, Lebanon and Sudan (among other countries) by a handful of moslems????

Maybe you can explain 10 million Christians slaughtered by Moslems in the name of islamic jihad in the twentieth century alone??

I can explain it, that is what their so-called 'religion' tells them they MUST do!

Egypt: Genocide on Coptic Christians – BBC Claims “Sectarian Violence is Unusual” ? Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami

Muslims Torch Christian Homes in Egypt



Nuance this:

Egypt: Muslim gangs rape Christian girls



This behavior is common throughout the world of islam where they are in the majority and becoming much more common in parts of Europe where moslems had established sectors where they are in the majority.
Click to expand...

You Go Now!
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top