Peace-loving and religiously tolerant Muslims in Egypt

#226
#226
You're both right about my views but Volatile is wrong about at what point I would nuke. I would nuke only if I was threatened. Could care less what happens to the Middle East for the most part.
 
#228
#228
NEOCON said:
My name will never make sense to most of the people on here. I am a neocon on some issues. I'm a liberal on others. As far as the Middle East goes, I take a stance that really ticks most people off on here. Leave them completely alone and let them do to their area and their people whatever they feel like unless they physically threaten the security of the USA. Then I am all for blowing them or anyone else off the map. I view politics as the big quiet kid on the playground scenery. He is a quit kid. Doesn't bother anybody. But he is stronger than everyone else. Play nice with him and everything is fine. He let's everyone do as they please. Bother him and he will beat you into the concrete and leave you for dead.

Nation building is an absolute joke.
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NEOCON said:
You're both right about my views but Volatile is wrong about at what point I would nuke. I would nuke only if I was threatened. Could care less what happens to the Middle East for the most part.
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NEOCON said:
Never for invasion. Invasion is no longer needed with todays weapons.
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Perhaps you don't understand what I'm talking about, but the I'm referring to IR.

Neo-conservatives don't resemble anything you're talking about.

You would be better suited with the name of Neo-realist.
 
#229
#229
bam15 said:
Perhaps you don't understand what I'm talking about, but the I'm referring to IR.

Neo-conservatives don't resemble anything you're talking about.

You would be better suited with the name of Neo-realist.
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I understand your comment. My name is a joke. My avatar is a joke.

The whole thing was done over a conversation between myself an PoochPuntPunt.

I'm not anything. I'm about as Superman icecream as you get.
 
#230
#230
I would have changed my name to Elliott Abrams but, let's be honest, everyone would have just thought my real name is Elliott.
 
#231
#231
NEOCON said:
I understand your comment. My name is a joke. My avatar is a joke.

The whole thing was done over a conversation between myself an PoochPuntPunt.

I'm not anything. I'm about as Superman icecream as you get.
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Part of the problem nowadays is the intermingling of names. Any time someone hates on anything resembling the Republican Party, the supposed slur of Neo-conservative, as if it is a pejorative, is often used. It is much more complex than anyone will give it credit for.
 
#232
#232
I do agree with alot of the Neo conservative movement. I just don't believe you can go in and force democracy onto a group of people who have 1000's of years of culture going against it. It has worked in some areas after WW2 but beyond that, in a large scale, it has failed. Democracy is mainly a european movement that came about as a rebellion against King rule. It grew and has become what it is today. It is much easier to go against King rule than to change a country where the Theology is what dictates alot of decisions. Egypt could possibly move forward into democracy but it can't be done by some outside force injecting it into the system. It has to come from within and then the outside forces of democracy can come in and "help" the movement gain legs.
 
#233
#233
NEOCON said:
I do agree with alot of the Neo conservative movement. I just don't believe you can go in and force democracy onto a group of people who have 1000's of years of culture going against it. It has worked in some areas after WW2 but beyond that, in a large scale, it has failed. Democracy is mainly a european movement that came about as a rebellion against King rule. It grew and has become what it is today. It is much easier to go against King rule than to change a country where the Theology is what dictates alot of decisions. Egypt could possibly move forward into democracy but it can't be done by some outside force injecting it into the system. It has to come from within and then the outside forces of democracy can come in and "help" the movement gain legs.
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Islamderthals???

In both Iraq and Afghanistan we have fought to establish so-called democracies where sharia law is part of the constitution. What good is a so-called democracy when the citizens are still submitted to theocratic rule of law??

BTW, that theocratic rule of law does NOT extend equal rights to Christians or any other non-muslims either.

Critics Slam U.S. Government, Media for 'Weak' Response to Anti-Christian Attacks - FoxNews.com

When the Obama administration first noted an Oct. 31 church bombing in Iraq, for example, it sent “a general condolence to Iraqis that didn’t even mention the word Christian or churches -- even though it was a packed Sunday worship service for Christians that was blown up.”

That bombing, claimed by an Al Qaeda-linked organization, left 58 people dead and at least 78 wounded. It was the worst attack ever against Iraq's Christian minority.
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Well it might be the worst if you forget the Assyrian genocide that killed nearly a million early in the last century!!!

But then the dedia, including FOX treat their viewers and reades as if they were historically illiterate, the sad thing is that the majority are.
 
#235
#235
NEOCON said:
I do agree with alot of the Neo conservative movement. I just don't believe you can go in and force democracy onto a group of people who have 1000's of years of culture going against it. It has worked in some areas after WW2 but beyond that, in a large scale, it has failed. Democracy is mainly a european movement that came about as a rebellion against King rule. It grew and has become what it is today. It is much easier to go against King rule than to change a country where the Theology is what dictates alot of decisions. Egypt could possibly move forward into democracy but it can't be done by some outside force injecting it into the system. It has to come from within and then the outside forces of democracy can come in and "help" the movement gain legs.
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This! It's analogous to China being communist. Why on earth would anyone in this country care what form of gov't China uses. Is it brutal and oppressive? From our ethno-centric point of view yes. Do I agree with it? Not for me but I don't have to govern 1 billion people with a completely different culture and worldview from my own. To paraphrase the great Orwell, it is not the government's job to win the war but to perpetuate it as a means of controlling the citizenry. When there is no enemy to fight or fear the gov't must create one. The Cold War was against the spread of international communism. China doesn't want to spread anything but its economy. The "enemy" to democracy now is Islamo-fascism. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
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#236
#236
CSVol said:
This! It's analogous to China being communist. Why on earth would anyone in this country care what form of gov't China uses. Is it brutal and oppressive? From our ethno-centric point of view yes. Do I agree with it? Not for me but I don't have to govern 1 billion people with a completely different culture and worldview from my own. To paraphrase the great Orwell, it is not the government's job to win the war but to perpetuate it as a means of controlling the citizenry. When there is no enemy to fight or fear the gov't must create one. The Cold War was against the spread of international communism. China doesn't want to spread anything but its economy. The "enemy" to democracy now is Islao-fascism. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Well stated.
 
#238
#238
23ro2gi.jpg


Moonbattery: Egyptian Army Opens Fire on Christians

While the liberal establishment deliriously revels
in the army taking control of Egypt, and even
tries to give credit for this allegedly happy
occasion to the bumbling Obama, here's what's
happening to the handful of Christians who
have managed to survive centuries after the
catastrophic Islamic conquest in 642:

For the second time in as many days, Egyptian
armed force stormed the 5th century old St.
Bishoy monastery in Wadi el-Natroun, 110
kilometers from Cairo. Live ammunition was
fired, wounding two monks and six Coptic
monastery workers. Several sources confirmed
the army's use of RPG ammunition. Four people
have been arrested including three monks and
a Coptic lawyer who was at the monastery
investigating [the previous day's] army attack.

Monk Aksios Ava Bishoy told activist Nader
Shoukry of Freecopts the armed forces
stormed the main entrance gate to the
monastery in the morning using five tanks,
armored vehicles and a bulldozer to demolish
the fence built by the monastery last month
to protect themselves and the monastery
from the lawlessness which prevailed in Egypt
during the January 25 Uprising.
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Maybe Volatile can find coverage of this in
the Christian Science Monitor or DC on
al-Jazeera??

holbert.jpg
 
#241
#241
therealUT said:
The IRA*
Violent religious extremists are not now, nor have they ever been, exclusively Muslim.
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Absolutely true.

Now throw out your best honest guess as to the percentage of violent acts over the last, say, 50yrs directly related to Islamic extremism. I think our real problem now isn't an "Oh yeah, well so-and-so was violent too." argument...it's one of scope and scale.

*You really see the IRA as a religious group? I've always viewed them a far more politically motivated than theologically.
 
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#242
#242
hndog609 said:
Absolutely true.

Now throw out your best honest guess as to the percentage of violent acts over the last, say, 50yrs directly related to Islamic extremism. I think our real problem now isn't an "Oh yeah, well so-and-so was violent too." argument...it's one of scope and scale.

*You really see the IRA as a religious group? I've always viewed them a far more politically motivated than theologically.
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1961-2011:

Less than 10% of all violent acts, I would guess.
 
#243
#243
therealUT said:
1961-2011:

Less than 10% of all violent acts, I would guess.
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I might have tripped over the semantics in my question; if we're talking "acts" characterized as religiously motivated acts of terror that number sounds very low to me.
 
#244
#244
hndog609 said:
I might have tripped over the semantics in my question; if we're talking "acts" characterized as religiously motivated acts of terror that number sounds very low to me.
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Do we have to separate "religiously-motivated" from "ideologically-motivated"?

I would say that Vietnam was ideologically-motivated. The same with Iraq and our continued presence in Afghanistan. Add to that the abortion clinic bombings, the Branch-Davidians, and OK City (a response to the Waco massacre), and I am willing to go out on that limb.

The major difference is that radical Muslim extremists explicitly target civilians, while others do so implicitly under the guise of some more accepted rationale.
 
#245
#245
therealUT said:
Do we have to separate "religiously-motivated" from "ideologically-motivated"?

I would say that Vietnam was ideologically-motivated. The same with Iraq and our continued presence in Afghanistan. Add to that the abortion clinic bombings, the Branch-Davidians, and OK City (a response to the Waco massacre), and I am willing to go out on that limb.

The major difference is that radical Muslim extremists explicitly target civilians, while others do so implicitly under the guise of some more accepted rationale.
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My reply was based on this:

Violent religious extremists are not now, nor have they ever been, exclusively Muslim.
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You specified religious extremism before I did.

As for the rest of it I'm simply not going to accept governmental military action in this context, that's just too apples and oranges for me. If you wanted to go ideaology then that would let things like OK city, abortion clinic bombings and even your originally cited IRA in the mix. That would bring the numbers closer but I still think Islamic extremism would still absolutely trounce the rest in acts of violence in the modern world in the context we're addressing.

Oh, and I'm not aware of what violent acts were committed by the Branch Dividians against civilians. Maybe they did and I'm just not aware of anyting prior to the ATF/FBI raid.
 
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#246
#246
The IRA does not represent over one billion people stretching from Europe to the central Pacific. The IRA was a political movement meaning there was/is some basis for negotiating.

Muslim extremism is based on religious ideals held so tightly that there is no room for negotiation or co-existence.
 
#248
#248
sjt18 said:
The IRA was a political movement meaning there was/is some basis for negotiating.

Muslim extremism is based on religious ideals held so tightly that there is no room for negotiation or co-existence.
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Interesting that Iran and China seem to negotiate and co-exist quite nicely...
 
#249
#249
It isn't the number or occurences that matters. It is the ideological zeal and the ideals themselves.
 
#250
#250
sjt18 said:
It isn't the number or occurences that matters. It is the ideological zeal and the ideals themselves.
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In that case, all the Christian Right-Wingers who desire and/or call for the extermination of Muslims are the same as the Muslims who actually carry out that desire.
 
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