Penn State scandal (merged)

[CountVolcula]

It would also destroy the other athletic programs who count on football revenue to stay afloat. It would also hurt the other Big 10 members because they'd have to scramble to fix their schedules, and may not be able to find opponents who can bring in the same revenue as Penn State, and would damage their investment in the Big 10 network which counted on Penn State's presence when it was formed. It would also hurt the Big 10's other partners, who bid what they did for the broadcast rights because they counted on being able to show Penn State games.

If Penn State football were the only potential victim, I might be able to see your side. But it's not, so I can't.

Seems like you put sports ahead of whats important

 

[CountVolcula]

So a program that enabled child rape should escape punishment in part because it might hurt TV networks? Really?

Yep!

Thats what he is saying

 

[bamawriter]

The accomplishment is to make an example that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. That you cant simply ignore crimes because you dont want to tarnish your precious football program. That there are consequences for ignoring for 14 years, the horror that these kids had to go through.

Is the destruction of Penn State athletics an appropriate consequence?

 

[OldandStillaVol]

It would also destroy the other athletic programs who count on football revenue to stay afloat. It would also hurt the other Big 10 members because they'd have to scramble to fix their schedules, and may not be able to find opponents who can bring in the same revenue as Penn State, and would damage their investment in the Big 10 network which counted on Penn State's presence when it was formed. It would also hurt the Big 10's other partners, who bid what they did for the broadcast rights because they counted on being able to show Penn State games.

If Penn State football were the only potential victim, I might be able to see your side. But it's not, so I can't.

No doubt under a death penalty, innocent people would be hurt (but not too sympathetic to other Big-10 schools). The restaurant owner in town would be hurt, the kids who sell programs would be hurt, etc.

But punishment almost always hurts some innocent bystanders. You put a guy in jail, and his infant son suffers. But does that stop you from putting him in jail?

I simply cannot accept that Penn State football deserves no other punishment except what the school self imposes. Thus, the NCAA has to step in. Does it have to impose the Death Penalty to satisfy me? No, but I believe the NCAA has to accept the fact that it has some jurisdiction in this case.

 

[bamawriter]

So a program that enabled child rape should escape punishment in part because it might hurt TV networks? Really?

Mistates the facts. The Penn State "program" did not enable child rape. Several men in positions of authority enabled child rape because they put their own jobs and/or legacy above the welfare of numerous children. You can chalk that up to an established culture, certainly. But don't lump innocent people, who were completely ignorant of Sandusky's actions, in with those who are actually guilty.

 

[bamawriter]

Seems like you put sports ahead of whats important

Not at all. But I'm also not pretending that doing damage to sports is going to accomplish anything.

 

[YorkVol]

In 2005 there was a Grand Jury investigation into child abuse by Catholic priests in Philadelphia

Philadelphia Grand Jury Report

At the same time PSU had been covering up serial child rape by one of their coaches for at least 7 years.

There is something wrong in the culture that allows stuff like this to happen.
Tough to be a kid in the 90s and 00s, that's for sure.

 

[vols4sure]

Mistates the facts. The Penn State "program" did not enable child rape. Several men in positions of authority enabled child rape because they put their own jobs and/or legacy above the welfare of numerous children. You can chalk that up to an established culture, certainly. But don't lump innocent people, who were completely ignorant of Sandusky's actions, in with those who are actually guilty.

Your point will be helped if PSU started taking actions to distance themselves from Paterno and his legacy. Last I checked, students rioted when he was asked to resign, Paterno's statute is still standing, etc.

 

[OldandStillaVol]

In 2005 there was a Grand Jury investigation into child abuse by Catholic priests in Philadelphia

Philadelphia Grand Jury Report

At the same time PSU had been covering up serial child rape by one of their coaches for at least 7 years.

There is something wrong in the culture that allows stuff like this to happen.
Tough to be a kid in the 90s and 00s, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, I think it is man's innate nature which allows this to happen. When too much power is left unchecked to a few individuals, abuse of that power is inevitable. Always need checks and balances.

 

[bamawriter]

Your point will be helped if PSU started taking actions to distance themselves from Paterno and his legacy. Last I checked, students rioted when he was asked to resign, Paterno's statute is still standing, etc.

And I've said, numerous times, that Paterno's legacy ought to be wiped out. He, and the three stooges, put his legacy above those children, so his legacy should be destroyed. It's shocking to me that Penn State hasn't gone ahead and announced that they are doing just that. If they choose not to, it should be a major black eye for them.

 

[ukvols]

If they had acted on Sandusky in '01, I'm not sure how it could have cost Paterno his job. They would have been dealing with the issue, and Paterno would have been a part of that. Paterno didn't want the embarrassment, but he wasn't worried about his job.

Other than protecting his job and legacy, there was no motivation for Paterno to cover it up, unless he just couldn't bear seeing his friend in trouble.

I agree that it's completely possible that two losing seasons and someone else abusing kids would not have gotten Paterno ousted, especially if Paterno acted quickly to properly turn Sandusky in.

That's just my interpretation of why he apparently covered it up. To me, that's the only explanation that makes sense. If he had no concerns about his job status and believed his legacy wouldn't take a hit if he quickly handed Sandusky over, I think he would have done it. It's either that, or Paterno was somehow unaware that abusing children is a criminal and immoral act.

 

[Spartacavolus]

I don't think current players, faculty and people that had no knowledge of anything should be victimized by the sick minds of a handful of people in positions of power.

I don't think the death penalty is the answer. I think PSU should lose about every dollar in it's endowment. I think anyone involved with a cover up of any sort should be in jail. I think the statue should be leveled, and the current athletic facilities where these actions occured should be leveled.

 

[ukvols]

It would also destroy the other athletic programs who count on football revenue to stay afloat. It would also hurt the other Big 10 members because they'd have to scramble to fix their schedules, and may not be able to find opponents who can bring in the same revenue as Penn State, and would damage their investment in the Big 10 network which counted on Penn State's presence when it was formed. It would also hurt the Big 10's other partners, who bid what they did for the broadcast rights because they counted on being able to show Penn State games.

If Penn State football were the only potential victim, I might be able to see your side. But it's not, so I can't.

All true.

I think it's more likely that the death penalty is never again handed to any major football program than it is that the NCAA will give it to PSU now.

 

[Lexvol]

Mistates the facts. The Penn State "program" did not enable child rape. Several men in positions of authority enabled child rape because they put their own jobs and/or legacy above the welfare of numerous children. You can chalk that up to an established culture, certainly. But don't lump innocent people, who were completely ignorant of Sandusky's actions, in with those who are actually guilty.

Did the "program" give money to Albert Means, or was it out of control boosters? The program created the environment that allowed the abuse to take place.

I don't mention that to rub salt in any wounds. Just to make a point.

Penn State allowed Jo Pa to become a "Godfather".

 

[Vercingetorix]

Mistates the facts. The Penn State "program" did not enable child rape. Several men in positions of authority enabled child rape because they put their own jobs and/or legacy above the welfare of numerous children. You can chalk that up to an established culture, certainly. But don't lump innocent people, who were completely ignorant of Sandusky's actions, in with those who are actually guilty.

Why did the janitors not say anything? Why did McCreary call his dad and then go talk to the football coach instead of calling the cops? Saying that this was just the (in)actions of a few men misses the entire point. This was the culture at Penn State football. The coach, the AD, at least two assistant coaches, even the custodial staff knew what the drill was. Shut up. Nothing to see here.

As far as all the handwringing over the innocent bystanders -- as I said earlier, if the NCAA didn't worry about collateral damage in the the Reggie Bush case, then I don't see why that's any kind of argument now.

 

[ukvols]

So a program that enabled child rape should escape punishment in part because it might hurt TV networks? Really?

I think his point is that killing PSU's football program would affect everyone but the evildoers.

The loss of football revenue would probably crush their "olympic" sports programs. So, a better question is whether PSU deserves to have its entire athletics department creamed. If the answer is yes, then I too don't care about the Big 10 Network.

 

[ukvols]

No doubt under a death penalty, innocent people would be hurt (but not too sympathetic to other Big-10 schools). The restaurant owner in town would be hurt, the kids who sell programs would be hurt, etc.

But punishment almost always hurts some innocent bystanders. You put a guy in jail, and his infant son suffers. But does that stop you from putting him in jail?

I simply cannot accept that Penn State football deserves no other punishment except what the school self imposes. Thus, the NCAA has to step in. Does it have to impose the Death Penalty to satisfy me? No, but I believe the NCAA has to accept the fact that it has some jurisdiction in this case.

If PSU gets the death penalty, innocent bystanders will be the ONLY people hurt.

 

[Lexvol]

I think his point is that killing PSU's football program would affect everyone but the evildoers.

The loss of football revenue would probably crush their "olympic" sports programs. So, a better question is whether PSU deserves to have its entire athletics department creamed. If the answer is yes, then I too don't care about the Big 10 Network.

'AA punishment always includes collateral damages. It has never stopped it before. When you allow something like this to occur, it is the their responsibility to clean up the mess. The alumni has deep pockets....

 

[bamawriter]

ukvols,

I think you're wrong about Paterno protecting his job, and spot on about protecting his legacy. I think the reason that Paterno talked Schulz, Curley, and Spanier out of going to the authorities is that he figured he was invincible, and they were afraid of losing their jobs if they stood up to him. There is no doubt that PSU would have been embarrassed by the scandal had they turned Sandusky in back in '01. And I think Paterno was worried that it might make recruiting difficult.

But in the end, I think his absolutely certainty about his job security is the exact reason why he thought he could cover it up. Had he been at all concerned about losing his job, turning Sandusky in would be the safest route. Spanier even acknowledged as much in an email after Joe nixed the idea of going to the police. Spanier pointed out that there was a major risk if the story broke, and it was shown that they all knew. The stooges were certainly scared for their careers, but Paterno quite obviously wasn't.

 

[Lexvol]

If PSU gets the death penalty, innocent bystanders will be the ONLY people hurt.

How do you call blind loyalty to Jo Pa innocent? They blindly supported his despotism.

 

[ukvols]

How do you call blind loyalty to Jo Pa innocent? They blindly supported his despotism.

I commented based on the assumption that no current employee or student-athlete of PSU was aware of Sandusky's criminal actions until you and I became aware.

 

[Lexvol]

I commented based on the assumption that no current employee or student-athlete of PSU was aware of Sandusky's criminal actions until you and I became aware.

They are still guilty of allowing Jo Pa to become a power vacuum....who was essentially accountable to no one. He made decisions that he had absolutely no business making. Fans/administration share responsibility for creating that environment.

 

[bamawriter]

Why did the janitors not say anything? Why did McCreary call his dad and then go talk to the football coach instead of calling the cops? Saying that this was just the (in)actions of a few men misses the entire point. This was the culture at Penn State football. The coach, the AD, at least two assistant coaches, even the custodial staff knew what the drill was. Shut up. Nothing to see here.

Like I said, blaming "culture" is fine. People create cultures, both good and bad. But the NCAA can't punish "cultures." They can only punish programs. If they could punish cultures, then Tennessee should have lost scholarships when a few idiots rioted after Kiffin left.

The NCAA can only punish actions. In this case, the actions should be outside the NCAA's jurisdiction.

As far as all the handwringing over the innocent bystanders -- as I said earlier, if the NCAA didn't worry about collateral damage in the the Reggie Bush case, then I don't see why that's any kind of argument now.

Yes, the players who had nothing to do with the Bush mess got hurt, but that's always going to be the case because the NCAA can only act retroactively. But at least the damage stayed on USC's campus, and just within their football program. The death penalty doesn't just affect the school or program in question. What those idiots did was horrific, but do Nebraska, Michigan State, and Northwestern need to be punished along with PSU?

 

[bamawriter]

They are still guilty of allowing Jo Pa to become a power vacuum....who was essentially accountable to no one. He made decisions that he had absolutely no business making. Fans/administration share responsibility for creating that environment.

So Marilyn Manson was responsible for Columbine?

 

[ukvols]

I don't think the death penalty should be handed out, but I do think the NCAA has the opportunity to levy that or a smaller punishment should they choose to do so, because a case can be made that the cover-up helped Paterno keep his job in 2001. There was chatter at the time that he should step down, because the program was declining, based on their W/L records. So, it's entirely possible that this scandal would have cost him his job, had it come out in 2001.