Peyton manning= best qb ever

#276
#276
KBVol said:
Brady's a great QB and NE doesn't win any if those SBs without him. I just believe the team was constructed in a way that didn't rely on him as much to be able to win. He certainly played his role to perfection however..... especially in the clutch.
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Not saying he isn't great but I think Bledsoe could have won that first one. The only thing Brady was asked to do that season was to not lose the game.

Brady has been coached into greatness. Credit him for being coach able I guess.

Could the Pats have won those SBs with a different above average QB who was willing to stay within the CBB's system ? Maybe... Maybe not.

As he developed into an elite passer over the years and the defense got older I don't think they would have made the last two appearances without him for sure.
 
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#277
#277
I do wonder if Manning had the Super Bowls and Brady had the stats, would people flip their thinking. I'm betting a lot would, because I don't hear the stat guys praising Favre. Plus I hear people that argue Super Bowls are a team achievement say, if PM wins 2 more it won't be a discussion. Which is a contradiction.
 
#278
#278
burntorangeVOLffle said:
Not saying he isn't great but I think Bledsoe could have won that first one. The only thing Brady was asked to do that season was to not lose the game.

Brady has been coached into greatness. Credit him for being coach able I guess.

Could the Pats have won those SBs with a different above average QB who was willing to stay within the CBB's system ? Maybe... Maybe not.

As he developed into an elite passer over the years and the defense got older I don't think they would have made the last two appearances without him for sure.
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Drew Bledsoe was 5-13 as a starting QB in his last 18games right before Brady took over. NE hadn't had a winning record in several years.
 
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#280
#280
vols-1 said:
He played with Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James. They have a dozen Pro-bowls between them. Plus Dwight Freeney(7PB),Jeff Saturday(5PB),Reggie Wayne(6PB),Robert Mathis(4PB). And Broncos had six other pro-bowers last year including Champ Bailey who's a 1st ballot HOF'er.
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Pro Bowls are voted by fans. Popularity contest.
 
#282
#282
vols-1 said:
Drew Bledsoe was 5-13 as a starting QB in his last 18games right before Brady took over. NE hadn't had a winning record in several years.
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And he went to the pro bowl in 2002 so it's not like he was completely washed up. Bledsoe was certainly capable of getting them to the SB in 2001 (beyond that I'm not so sure). It's all speculation whether he would have or not.

Additionally the Bellichick defensive machine hadn't started rolling until the 2001 season. Again it's all speculation but Brady wasn't asked to do a whole lot that year.
 
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#285
#285
vols-1 said:
Belicheck was still 5-13 at NE before Brady took over.
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He had to rebuild. Their defense went from 17th in 2000 to 6th in 2001.

Also the passing stats went down from 19th in 2000 to 22nd in 2001.

Meanwhile the rushing attack went for 26th to 13th.
 
#286
#286
burntorangeVOLffle said:
He had to rebuild. Their defense went from 17th in 2000 to 6th in 2001.

Also the passing stats went down from 19th in 2000 to 22nd in 2001.

Meanwhile the rushing attack went for 26th to 13th.
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In a way the switch from Bledsoe to Brady helped those 2. You are not going to let a relative unknown chuck it as much as Bledsoe. Which would lead to more rushing and a more ball control offense, which would in turn help the defense. Do you know what time of possession was for the respective seasons?
 
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#287
#287
BadJerry20 said:
I do wonder if Manning had the Super Bowls and Brady had the stats, would people flip their thinking. I'm betting a lot would, because I don't hear the stat guys praising Favre. Plus I hear people that argue Super Bowls are a team achievement say, if PM wins 2 more it won't be a discussion. Which is a contradiction.
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It’s no more contradictory than advocates of Super-Bowl-Championships-as-the-final-arbiter-of-greatness-for-quarterbacks who champion Montana on the basis of his 4-0 record and brilliant stat sheet achieved on that stage and then immediately dismiss Terry Bradshaw from consideration despite the basis that he also achieved a 4-0 record as starting quarterback in Super Bowls. They were both outstanding quarterbacks who played for outstanding TEAMS and outstanding coaches.

Those of us who are predisposed to champion Peyton over Brady do so for one or more of the following reasons:

(1) We categorically reject the premise that super bowls are the final arbiter of greatness for quarterbacks. It is a specious argument that is unilaterally applied to the quarterback position.

(2) We contend that Brady has more consistently been the beneficiary of a strong supporting defense and the best head coach in the NFL. In short, Peyton has been forced to more directly shoulder the responsibility for success or failure of his team than Brady.

(3) Peyton is a UT grad, he has represented our university and program with exceptional class in the NFL, and we choose, without reservation or apology, to support him in making such comparisons.

As for Favre, yes, he was a great quarterback. Like Pete Rose and, for a long time, Hank Aaron, his status atop the statistical charts owes greatly to sheer, unadulterated longevity. Just for the sake of argument, let’s take a look at the career records of Favre, Manning and Brady in the categories for which quarterbacks are most directly responsible, with every play of every game weighted equally:

Completion %: Favre (62.0), Brady (63.5), Manning (65.4)
TD %: Favre (5.0), Brady (5.5), Manning (5.8)
Int %: Favre (3.3), Brady (2.0), Manning (2.6)
Yds./Att: Favre (7.1), Brady (7.5), Manning (7.7)
Yds./Comp: Favre (11.4), Brady (11.8), Manning (11.7)
Yds./Game: Favre (237.9), Brady (255.3), Manning (270.7)
Quarterback Rating: Favre (86.0), Brady (95.8), Manning (97.0)

Without any creative math, Peyton wins that competition 5-2 over Brady, with Favre placing last in all seven categories.
 
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#288
#288
You said its a contradiction yet explained why. Not a contradiction and pretty simple. Same way I view MJ, it isn't just about titles it's how you perform in those moments.
Montana 68% 11 tds 0 ints.
Bradshaw 58% 9 tds 4 ints.

#3 answered my question

Btw I didnt ask what you argue, I just wonder if people would flip the way they view the criteria. #3 says yes
 
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#289
#289
One thing that should be considered, passing numbers today are greatly inflated. One could argue if say, Marino played in today's passer friendly game he would have every record.
 
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#290
#290
#3 is part of the equation but it certainly isn't all of it. If you choose to place an inordinate amount of weight on Montana's performance in Super Bowls, that is your prerogative, it is certainly a defensible position and it is one that many pundits have advanced. I place greater credence on the career body of work, which really should have been option no. 4, and it is one that requires a more nuanced analysis, to which all of us have been contributing in our own respective ways.
 
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#291
#291
Volosaurus rex said:
#3 is part of the equation but it certainly isn't all of it. If you choose to place an inordinate amount of weight on Montana's performance in Super Bowls, that is your prerogative, it is certainly a defensible position and it is one that many pundits have advanced. I place greater credence on the career body of work, which really should have been option no. 4, and it is one that requires a more nuanced analysis, to which all of us have been contributing in our own respective ways.
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Montana had a great career the super Bowls are the topping for me personally. I'm not a Super Bowls=greatness guy. Honestly one guy gets overlooked in this discussion, and doesn't have a ring. Marino probably the greatest pure passer ever, definitely the quickest release.


I don't think you are understanding my question. If Manning had the Super Bowls and Brady had the stats, would people still say stats are a more telling sign to greatness. Cause I don't believe they would. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just a simple question.
 
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#292
#292
Ftr I think all 3 guys are top 5 great, and think you have made great points during the conversation. I said at the beginning I try to stay out of this discussion, but the guys that have been logical about it kept me in here. It's been more calm than this debate usual goes, and I've enjoyed it.
 
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#293
#293
BadJerry20 said:
In a way the switch from Bledsoe to Brady helped those 2. You are not going to let a relative unknown chuck it as much as Bledsoe. Which would lead to more rushing and a more ball control offense, which would in turn help the defense. Do you know what time of possession was for the respective seasons?
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Good point. Not sure about TOP but worth pointing out completions to attempts.

2000 - 328/565
2001 - 306/482

Pretty significant dip in attempts but not too much on the completions so point for Brady. However, it still reflects that Brady was not asked to do much in that first season in which he won a SB. He wasn't asked to shoulder the team in the way Manning has since entering the league. Heck, Bledsoe wasn't asked to do much when he came in for the AFCCG.

And just to be clear I'm only saying this about the first SB Brady won. One thing that has been fun to follow about his career is watching him develop from being the game manager type to more of a flashy passer.
 
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#294
#294
I agree Manning was asked to do a lot from day one, kind of like Marino. Talk about a team doing a poor job helping a guy out btw. He had the Duper and Clayton, and that was pretty much it. Ok O-line, who was his best RB? Sammy Smith? Lol The D was meh. Great coach but not much else. Sorry got sidetracked there.

Brady has grown leaps and bounds as a passer, it's odd though as he's gotten better the team has gotten worse.
 
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#296
#296
Volosaurus rex said:
Completion %: Brees (65.9), Manning (65.4)
TD %: Brees (5.3), Manning (5.8)
Int %: Brees (2.6), Manning (2.6)
Yds./Att: Brees (7.5), Manning (7.7)
Yds./Comp: Brees (11.4), Manning (11.7)
Yds./Game: Brees (274.1), Manning (270.7)
Quarterback Rating: Brees (95), Manning (97.0)

Without any creative math, Peyton wins that competition 5-2 over Brady, with Favre placing last in all seven categories.
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They are practically the same as Drew Brees if you want to use averages:hi:
 
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#297
#297
Tennessee_JED said:
Brady is 10-4 against Peyton.
Brady is a far better qb in the playoffs both statistically and in the win column.

Brady > Manning
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Bradshaw was not better than Staubach. Kelly was not better than Marino. Aikman was not better than Young. Starr was not better than Unitas. The better QB in each of these was on the lesser team. Brady is not better than Manning.
 
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#299
#299
BadJerry20 said:
I agree Manning was asked to do a lot from day one, kind of like Marino. Talk about a team doing a poor job helping a guy out btw. He had the Duper and Clayton, and that was pretty much it. Ok O-line, who was his best RB? Sammy Smith? Lol The D was meh. Great coach but not much else. Sorry got sidetracked there.

Brady has grown leaps and bounds as a passer, it's odd though as he's gotten better the team has gotten worse.
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I don't know the answer to this question, but it would be interesting to contrast the relationship which Shula had with the front office during his career at Baltimore and his early years in Miami vs. that which existed during the Marino era. He certainly had more balanced teams during the 1960s and early '70s, but, as you observed, the Dolphins did very little to give Marino the supporting cast necessary to truly compete for championships. (For the record, I looked it up and Marino played with only one 1,000-yard rusher in his career, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, who ran for 1,116 yards as a rookie in 1996.) For Dolphins aficionados out there, did Shula not have final player control decisions then, in terms of the draft, or did he make a conscious decision to try and ride his thoroughbred quarterback to another Super Bowl?
 
#300
#300
Volosaurus rex said:
I don't know the answer to this question, but it would be interesting to contrast the relationship which Shula had with the front office during his career at Baltimore and his early years in Miami vs. that which existed during the Marino era. He certainly had more balanced teams during the 1960s and early '70s, but, as you observed, the Dolphins did very little to give Marino the supporting cast necessary to truly compete for championships. (For the record, I looked it up and Marino played with only one 1,000-yard rusher in his career, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, who ran for 1,116 yards as a rookie in 1996.) For Dolphins aficionados out there, did Shula not have final player control decisions then, in terms of the draft, or did he make a conscious decision to try and ride his thoroughbred quarterback to another Super Bowl?
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One? Wow that's pretty ridiculous. The fact that Marino did what he did just became more impressive. IMO
 
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