Poll: If you are a Trump supporter, do you consider him to be a “good Christian?”

[BigO95]

You keep repeating that while ducking the actual questions being posed. I think you want to have a honest conversation but I'm imagining your brain short circuiting early in the process of having to reconcile these inconvenient questions.

If Christ be risen from the grave, everyone of your other objections falls apart. If he's not risen from the grave, I have no leg to stand on. If he did rise, you better get right with him...

 

[BigO95]

That garbage always amazes me.
People wade into their concordance and read the Bible with their 2024 understanding of language and definitions. They never seem to want to look at what the people who wrote these things 2000 years ago understood these words to mean.

Do you believe the New testament is as much the word of God as the Torah?

 

[LouderVol]

I’m good with calling it with memory
or self awareness.

But that’s still punting the question of immortality.
Where does it say anywhere in scripture that you’re awarded immortality?
Other than the verse that clearly says it’s after the execution of judgment where the unrighteous have already been destroyed.

my recollection was always that after judgement one of two things happened and neither is defined in all that much detail. some will get to be with God, the rest won't.

and as far as the Judgement go unless you believe you are judged right after death, your soul would exist without your body until such judgement. again there are verses going both ways on when that judgement happens. so from the human perspective the soul does seem to exist separately, it could be argued from God's POV its something different, but without any framework to work from its just supposition there.

but even going back to Isaiah there are quotes about a new heaven and earth after the coming of the savior. again it doesn't really get defined about what that means.

in John you have Jesus saying that none will come to heaven until they are reborn. sometimes I see extra text that says "in me", so it may not be a literally rebirth. but I usually see it without that extra bit. and in Titus "rebirth" and "renewal" are both listed in the same verse, so it seems like these are separate words and not just a translation issue.

i won't bring up anything from Revelations because that has always seemed a fever dream to me, and I haven't figured it out yet. its clearly on the "parable" side more so than the direct teachings, but I haven't figured out if its supposed to be one big one, or multiple smaller ones, because its told almost as one story, but there are definite contradictions if you take it literally and as one story. but they offer a ton in there about what happens after.

 

[jvol1]

The soul is not immortal.

That's such an easy out. Do you think God would really let people get away with sin by dying without having atoned completely when he can stretch the payback period over many, many lifetimes?

 

[Orangeslice13]

my recollection was always that after judgement one of two things happened and neither is defined in all that much detail. some will get to be with God, the rest won't.

and as far as the Judgement go unless you believe you are judged right after death, your soul would exist without your body until such judgement. again there are verses going both ways on when that judgement happens. so from the human perspective the soul does seem to exist separately, it could be argued from God's POV its something different, but without any framework to work from its just supposition there.

but even going back to Isaiah there are quotes about a new heaven and earth after the coming of the savior. again it doesn't really get defined about what that means.

in John you have Jesus saying that none will come to heaven until they are reborn. sometimes I see extra text that says "in me", so it may not be a literally rebirth. but I usually see it without that extra bit. and in Titus "rebirth" and "renewal" are both listed in the same verse, so it seems like these are separate words and not just a translation issue.

i won't bring up anything from Revelations because that has always seemed a fever dream to me, and I haven't figured it out yet. its clearly on the "parable" side more so than the direct teachings, but I haven't figured out if its supposed to be one big one, or multiple smaller ones, because its told almost as one story, but there are definite contradictions if you take it literally and as one story. but they offer a ton in there about what happens after.

In my mind this is where theoretical physics meets theoretical implications. Barring with me for a moment. G-d claims to know the end from the beginning and at the same time says we have free will to choose. This is possible as G-d is outside of time and space. Think of it this way. All time is a book. You and I are only capable of seeing what we are reading. There is only now. The past doesn’t exist anymore and the future doesn’t exist now. G-d can see any page on that book at any time. That means he knows what we will choose to do even though it was our choice to do it. How does that apply to you post? I’m glad you asked. With this understanding, everyone who has ever died in all of history will appear in front of G-d for judgement immediately after their death but it will happen for everyone at the same event. In other words, my father died a year ago, king David 3000 years ago, and I will at some point in the hopefully distant future. We will all appear in front of G-d at the exact same “time” for what the Bible calls the great white throne judgment.

The math checks out on this too.
If you want we can go a step further and explain how this applies to the concept of eternal torment, or the lack of it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

That's such an easy out. Do you think God would really let people get away with sin by dying without having atoned completely when he can stretch the payback period over many, many lifetimes?

Is it?
Who’s the decision maker on that? Who decides what is appropriate? G-d has a habit of deciding these things for Himself. I don’t waste time arguing what I think G-d should do. I don’t deserve too. I limit myself to what it actually says in the oldest copies in the context of the time written.

I will give you this though, in continuing the thoughts that began with @LouderVol . There is only now. The only reason we know there’s a past is someone remembering it. We know there were people in Egypt because of pyramids but we don’t know anything really about any individual that lived there because there’s nobody to remember them. G-d clearly says that he will not remember the unrighteous after their judgement. So if the Creator, who operates outside of time, doesn’t remember you existed, did you ever really exist?

 

[BigO95]

2nd thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Now think about how all that applies to the creation of the universe and time.

 

[Orangeslice13]

2nd thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Everlasting destruction. (Final and complete) destruction.
Not life that doesn’t deteriorate in fire.
From the presence of G-d. (He doesn’t remember you)

 

[BigO95]

Everlasting destruction. (Final and complete) destruction.
Not life that doesn’t deteriorate in fire.
From the presence of G-d. (He doesn’t remember you)

Keep twisting it all you please, the fact still remains the bible teaches everlasting punishment. You have to dig deep in extra biblical writings to try to prove your theology when the bible makes it very clear about the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire.

 

[BigO95]

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The false prophet is a real person. Is the beast not the antichrist that is to come? Another real person.

 

[Septic]

If Christ be risen from the grave, everyone of your other objections falls apart. If he's not risen from the grave, I have no leg to stand on. If he did rise, you better get right with him...

Your faith hinges on one mans letter, 20 years after an alleged event that biblical scholars question the details of.

But what of the 500 people who saw the risen Jesus at the same time?

First of all, biblical scholars have no idea what event Paul is referring to here. Some have suggested that it is a reference to the “day of Pentecost” (Acts 2:1), when the Holy Spirit gave the Christian community in Jerusalem a supernatural ability to speak in languages that were unknown to them. But one leading scholar has suggested that this event was added to the list of resurrection appearances by Paul, and that its origins are uncertain.

The Case for Christ: What’s the evidence for the resurrection?

The movie ‘The Case for Christ’ is released this weekend. A scholar takes a close look at the claims for the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection.

theconversation.com

 

[BigO95]

The rich man in Luke 16


22b the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24¶And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[BigO95]

Your faith hinges on one mans letter, 20 years after an alleged event that biblical scholars question the details of.

The Case for Christ: What’s the evidence for the resurrection?

The movie ‘The Case for Christ’ is released this weekend. A scholar takes a close look at the claims for the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection.

theconversation.com

My faith rests on the facts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
Deny it all you please, but the fact is, there's still an empty tomb!!

 

[jvol1]

Is it?
Who’s the decision maker on that? Who decides what is appropriate? G-d has a habit of deciding these things for Himself. I don’t waste time arguing what I think G-d should do. I don’t deserve too. I limit myself to what it actually says in the oldest copies in the context of the time written.

I will give you this though, in continuing the thoughts that began with @LouderVol . There is only now. The only reason we know there’s a past is someone remembering it. We know there were people in Egypt because of pyramids but we don’t know anything really about any individual that lived there because there’s nobody to remember them. G-d clearly says that he will not remember the unrighteous after their judgement. So if the Creator, who operates outside of time, doesn’t remember you existed, did you ever really exist?

If good behavior counts, then sin or bad behavior must needs be atoned for. The law doesnt really mean anything otherwise. I have no idea or could possibly know what God thinks or desires, but that's the common inference based on the fact we were given the law.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Keep twisting it all you please, the fact still remains the bible teaches everlasting punishment. You have to dig deep in extra biblical writings to try to prove your theology when the bible makes it very clear about the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire.

That’s funny.
The guy looking at original definition and context is twisting.
Done with you

 

[Orangeslice13]

If good behavior counts, then sin or bad behavior must needs be atoned for. The law doesnt really mean anything otherwise. I have no idea or could possibly know what God thinks or desires, but that's the common inference based on the fact we were given the law.

What behaviors count?
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d”



Messiah atoned.
And for everyone else “the wages of sin is Death “
Or
Psalms “the wicked shall be destroyed”

The desire for wrath on the part of believers is something that I find odd. But if the most high says death is their final punishment then I’m inclined to accept his will.

 

[Jxn Vol]

It’s fascinating how folks try so fervently to prove how right their religion is on here. Especially when the anti-religion folks chime in.

It’s a personal thing between you and your God. No need to judge folks faith. It actually makes you come across as someone that hasn’t quite reconciled what you believe. If you are satisfied in what you believe then stop criticizing others and move along.

 

[BigO95]

That’s funny.
The guy looking at original definition and context is twisting.
Done with you

Good, I'm tired of the same old bible bashing argument. Either you believe the bible or you don't. It's really that simple.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Good, I'm tired of the same old bible bashing argument. Either you believe the bible or you don't. It's really that simple.

Lolololol

 

[LouderVol]

In my mind this is where theoretical physics meets theoretical implications. Barring with me for a moment. G-d claims to know the end from the beginning and at the same time says we have free will to choose. This is possible as G-d is outside of time and space. Think of it this way. All time is a book. You and I are only capable of seeing what we are reading. There is only now. The past doesn’t exist anymore and the future doesn’t exist now. G-d can see any page on that book at any time. That means he knows what we will choose to do even though it was our choice to do it. How does that apply to you post? I’m glad you asked. With this understanding, everyone who has ever died in all of history will appear in front of G-d for judgement immediately after their death but it will happen for everyone at the same event. In other words, my father died a year ago, king David 3000 years ago, and I will at some point in the hopefully distant future. We will all appear in front of G-d at the exact same “time” for what the Bible calls the great white throne judgment.

The math checks out on this too.
If you want we can go a step further and explain how this applies to the concept of eternal torment, or the lack of it.

I guess it all comes down to how you choose to interpret God's reality and how that applies to us. at best a guessing game for any of us, and dangerous to assume you have the exact rightness of it.

My twist has been: being omniscient and yet allowing for free will I assumed that God knew all possible futures. and in a quantum observation like situation, God isn't directly observing, and thus fixing it in place, the one "reality" we live, but just allowing himself to see the results allowing us to live our lives. so there isn't a multiverse where every choice spawns an equal number of other realities. but one reality with an infinite number of choices. God knows them all but isn't setting them.

for your book scenario I would see it as more of a "choose your own adventure book" but the characters are the ones making the choices. there are multiple endings, and God can read each one and know how each one COULD end, but the choices are still there. there is only ONE path we will take, but there are multiple paths we COULD take. God knows them all, so it doesn't take away from him if we decide to wear a blue hat vs a red hat during a glitch in the Matrix.

 

[LouderVol]

Keep twisting it all you please, the fact still remains the bible teaches everlasting punishment. You have to dig deep in extra biblical writings to try to prove your theology when the bible makes it very clear about the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire.

you didn't quote anything about a lake of fire.

you only mentioned God and his angles as the source of destruction. and you are leaving out the pertinent part of the quote "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and the glory of his power" read the whole quote there, don't just stop with destruction. read what the destruction actually is.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I guess it all comes down to how you choose to interpret God's reality and how that applies to us. at best a guessing game for any of us, and dangerous to assume you have the exact rightness of it.

My twist has been: being omniscient and yet allowing for free will I assumed that God knew all possible futures. and in a quantum observation like situation, God isn't directly observing, and thus fixing it in place, the one "reality" we live, but just allowing himself to see the results allowing us to live our lives. so there isn't a multiverse where every choice spawns an equal number of other realities. but one reality with an infinite number of choices. God knows them all but isn't setting them.

for your book scenario I would see it as more of a "choose your own adventure book" but the characters are the ones making the choices. there are multiple endings, and God can read each one and know how each one COULD end, but the choices are still there. there is only ONE path we will take, but there are multiple paths we COULD take. God knows them all, so it doesn't take away from him if we decide to wear a blue hat vs a red hat during a glitch in the Matrix.

First, absolutely. It’s important to know what you believe for yourself and allow others to do the same.
Secondly, going to ponder the rest and come back to it. Good stuff

 

[BigO95]

you didn't quote anything about a lake of fire.

you only mentioned God and his angles as the source of destruction. and you are leaving out the pertinent part of the quote "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and the glory of his power" read the whole quote there, don't just stop with destruction. read what the destruction actually is.

Did you mean this part?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into (the lake of fire) and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and( shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.)

 

[MercyPercy]

That's such an easy out. Do you think God would really let people get away with sin by dying without having atoned completely when he can stretch the payback period over many, many lifetimes?

...That is the god you choose to worship? One that condemns people to eternal torment because they weren't the right sect of Christianity?

Slice's version makes more sense imo