Poll: If you are a Trump supporter, do you consider him to be a “good Christian?”

[LouderVol]

Did you mean this part?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into (the lake of fire) and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and( shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.)

that's separate from the previous quote. complete different book, and talking about a completely different individual, in a different set of circumstances.

putting aside the whole Revelation part of it. it would be like assuming the US uses the death penalty on every prisoner because we use the death penalty on the worst of the worse.

 

[LouderVol]

First, absolutely. It’s important to know what you believe for yourself and allow others to do the same.
Secondly, going to ponder the rest and come back to it. Good stuff

I definitely include myself in that warning about assuming I have the exact right of it.

 

[Behr]

That’s funny.
The guy looking at original definition and context is twisting.
Done with you

BigO posted Matthew 25:46. Jesus refers to both eternal life and eternal death. Am I supposed to believe eternal means everlasting when it refers to life but something totally different when it refers to punishment? 46 is part of a parable and to take part of a verse and try to interpret it separately isn't something I was taught.

I don't desire wrath I just try my best to get what I believe is the truth out of Scripture whether I like it or not. I know you know that about me and this is one reason I believe it says what it means.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Keep twisting it all you please, the fact still remains the bible teaches everlasting punishment. You have to dig deep in extra biblical writings to try to prove your theology when the bible makes it very clear about the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire.

Who will be receiving the everlasting punishment?

 

[Behr]

that's separate from the previous quote. complete different book, and talking about a completely different individual, in a different set of circumstances.

putting aside the whole Revelation part of it. it would be like assuming the US uses the death penalty on every prisoner because we use the death penalty on the worst of the worse.

Let's say there is hell and eternal punishment. To your understanding is it really all that hard to stay out of it?

Lol, seriously. I think about this often. We're (me included) just like little children. We're told to do and we don't because we were told to, not because it's hard. And there is always a consequence but with this it's so severe we choose to not believe it.

Staying out of hell really ain't hard in my opinion, the first step is letting go of pride and that's almost impossible for many. It's the one thing that would send me. If it existed. Lol.

 

[Behr]

Who will be receiving the everlasting punishment?

Those that listen to that music you listen to.

 

[MercyPercy]

Let's say there is hell and eternal punishment. To your understanding is it really all that hard to stay out of it?

Lol, seriously. I think about this often. We're (me included) just like little children. We're told to do and we don't because we were told to, not because it's hard. And there is always a consequence but with this it's so severe we choose to not believe it.

Staying out of hell really ain't hard in my opinion, the first step is letting go of pride and that's almost impossible for many. It's the one thing that would send me. If it existed. Lol.

Nearly every sect of of Christianity has different rules about hell and how to avoid it.. much less all the other religions around the world.

If you don't pick the right one..

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Let's say there is hell and eternal punishment. To your understanding is it really all that hard to stay out of it?

Lol, seriously. I think about this often. We're (me included) just like little children. We're told to do and we don't because we were told to, not because it's hard. And there is always a consequence but with this it's so severe we choose to not believe it.

Staying out of hell really ain't hard in my opinion, the first step is letting go of pride and that's almost impossible for many. It's the one thing that would send me. If it existed. Lol.

Pride has always been the greatest downfall of mankind.

 

[hog88]

Pride has always been the greatest downfall of mankind.

That and women.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Those that listen to that music you listen to.
View attachment 607569

 

[Behr]

Nearly every sect of of Christianity has different rules about hell and how to avoid it.. much less all the other religions around the world.

If you don't pick the right one..

I'm not worried about all the others just the one I choose. Slice and I disagree on alot but one thing we do agree on is, if there is a God, which I believe there is, I'll be responsible for answering for no one but me.

Edit: I shouldn't have said Slice and I don't agree on alot, I think we do, but we disagree on a couple of "big" ones.

 

[Orangeslice13]

BigO posted Matthew 25:46. Jesus refers to both eternal life and eternal death. Am I supposed to believe eternal means everlasting when it refers to life but something totally different when it refers to punishment? 46 is part of a parable and to take part of a verse and try to interpret it separately isn't something I was taught.

I don't desire wrath I just try my best to get what I believe is the truth out of Scripture whether I like it or not. I know you know that about me and this is one reason I believe it says what it means.

Context always matters.
The same word is used to describe the rule of empires and emperors. Caesar is dead and gone but his rule was described as eternal using the same Greek word.

 

[Behr]

Context always matters.
The same word is used to describe the rule of empires and emperors. Caesar is dead and gone but his rule was described as eternal using the same Greek word.

Where is is the same word used?

Edit. NM, it doesn't matter. I believe it's in the context it was meant.

 

[jvol1]

What behaviors count?
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d”



Messiah atoned.
And for everyone else “the wages of sin is Death “
Or
Psalms “the wicked shall be destroyed”

The desire for wrath on the part of believers is something that I find odd. But if the most high says death is their final punishment then I’m inclined to accept his will.

A desire for wrath has nothing to do with atonement for wrong doing. Neither I nor, I would say, god wants to see people punished or the world burn, but if you do the crime you gotta do the time. That's just a fundamental part of having laws and trying be a good person if you make a mistake.

Paul is the one who I associate with the idea that basically every stray thought in your head is a sin and the only possible punishment for any sin is eternal damnation. I disagree with the notion that thoughts are sins and that the only possible punishment is eternal damnation. I dont think such ideas are in line with the teachings of jesus.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Where is is the same word used?

Edit. NM, it doesn't matter. I believe it's in the context it was meant.

Without getting too wordy. You can read this and draw your own conclusion.

The Greek of Matthew 25:46

Matthew 25:46 does indeed say 'everlasting punishment.' Hard words.

www.daily-bible-study-tips.com

 

[Volizona]

This has been a very interesting discussion and I’d like to see it continue. I think every single one of us has had thoughts/ questions about life after death. Should a new thread be created? I think the OPs original question about Trump has clearly been answered per the poll results.

 

[hog88]

A desire for wrath has nothing to do with atonement for wrong doing. Neither I nor, I would say, god wants to see people punished or the world burn, but if you do the crime you gotta do the time. That's just a fundamental part of having laws and trying be a good person if you make a mistake.

Paul is the one who I associate with the idea that basically every stray thought in your head is a sin and the only possible punishment for any sin is eternal damnation. I disagree with the notion that thoughts are sins and that the only possible punishment is eternal damnation. I dont think such ideas are in line with the teachings of jesus.

If people listened to Paul, Christianity would have died out within the first century.

 

[Volizona]

Question for @Orangeslice13….do you have to learn the original language of the original scripts, or is there any kind of cheat sheet or cliff notes that help you understand the true meaning of words?

 

[Orangeslice13]

A desire for wrath has nothing to do with atonement for wrong doing. Neither I nor, I would say, god wants to see people punished or the world burn, but if you do the crime you gotta do the time. That's just a fundamental part of having laws and trying be a good person if you make a mistake.

Paul is the one who I associate with the idea that basically every stray thought in your head is a sin and the only possible punishment for any sin is eternal damnation. I disagree with the notion that thoughts are sins and that the only possible punishment is eternal damnation. I dont think such ideas are in line with the teachings of jesus.

Have you ever studied the law and its function on atonement?
Not being snarky, it’s something that most believers just don’t do and it would really help people understand the G-d they follow if they did.

For example, you bring up thoughts and sin. Thoughts can absolutely be sin. The definition of sin according to the law isn’t evil. Sins can be evil but the actual meaning is simply “missing the mark”. In the sacrificial system there were sacrifices to atone for sins you were unaware you committed.
Another one is the Messiah is often called “the lamb of G-d who takes away the sins of the world “ but most have no idea what that actually means. Most don’t have a clue what the Passover lamb was for.

but back to the issue at hand, it doesn’t matter what we think the punishment should be. All that matters is what Hashem says it is. And the closer you get to seeking original truth or understanding the more obvious it becomes.

 

[Orangeslice13]

If people listened to Paul, Christianity would have died out within the first century.

Paul is the most misunderstood person in history.
I often challenge people to show me a teaching by Paul and I’ll show you what he was teaching in Torah. His job was to bring Torah to the world and that mission was altered after his death

 

[LouderVol]

Let's say there is hell and eternal punishment. To your understanding is it really all that hard to stay out of it?

Lol, seriously. I think about this often. We're (me included) just like little children. We're told to do and we don't because we were told to, not because it's hard. And there is always a consequence but with this it's so severe we choose to not believe it.

Staying out of hell really ain't hard in my opinion, the first step is letting go of pride and that's almost impossible for many. It's the one thing that would send me. If it existed. Lol.

you may be quoting the wrong person here. I am not in the firey afterlife belief club.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Question for @Orangeslice13….do you have to learn the original language of the original scripts, or is there any kind of cheat sheet or cliff notes that help you understand the true meaning of words?

Sadly it’s a lot of reading and studying.
My personal bias is I discount the opinion of anyone telling me what the definition of a word means today. What I want to know is what did it mean 2000 years ago and how was it used in all writings not just the Bible.

For example there’s a phrase to was used a lot in ancient writings. It’s a very common idiom of the time. It was used when an army would destroy their enemy. “The smoke of their destruction will rise forever”. Clearly that’s just a way of saying we beat them so bad they’ll never recover. That phrase made its way into the Bible and is often repeated as a proof of eternal torment when it’s a statement that speaks to permanence and not duration.

 

[MercyPercy]

I'm not worried about all the others just the one I choose. Slice and I disagree on alot but one thing we do agree on is, if there is a God, which I believe there is, I'll be responsible for answering for no one but me.

Edit: I shouldn't have said Slice and I don't agree on alot, I think we do, but we disagree on a couple of "big" ones.

That's fine, but I think it's worth exploring the implications of your beliefs and how your system "works" in regards to everyone else, not just you.. if we are all god's people. I think that opens the door for some good discussion and scenarios that could lead to additional critical analysis on your (or anyone's) interpretation of the system.

 

[MercyPercy]

This has been a very interesting discussion and I’d like to see it continue. I think every single one of us has had thoughts/ questions about life after death. Should a new thread be created? I think the OPs original question about Trump has clearly been answered per the poll results.

The thread this discussion is really meant for has been abandoned for fear of drawing out he who shall not be named.

 

[Behr]

you may be quoting the wrong person here. I am not in the firey afterlife belief club.

No, I may have misunderstood your point but I was commenting on what you said in the last part..."it would be like assuming the US uses the death penalty on every prisoner because we use the death penalty on the worst of the worse."