Praying Before Game WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT UT (merged)

[PowerSweep]

LOL this thread is getting hilarious, Atheists trying to teach the bible.

Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says
Report says nonbelievers know more, on average, about religion than most faithful. Jews and Mormons also score high on the U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey.
September 28, 2010|By Mitchell Landsberg, Los Angeles Times


If you want to know about God, you might want to talk to an atheist.

Heresy? Perhaps. But a survey that measured Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists and agnostics knew more, on average, than followers of most major faiths. In fact, the gaps in knowledge among some of the faithful may give new meaning to the term "blind faith."

A majority of Protestants, for instance, couldn't identify Martin Luther as the driving force behind the Protestant Reformation, according to the survey, released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Four in 10 Catholics misunderstood the meaning of their church's central ritual, incorrectly saying that the bread and wine used in Holy Communion are intended to merely symbolize the body and blood of Christ, not actually become them.

 

[yoyoyoyo]

Here is my opinion. I choose to pray, someone else may not. We both chose to go to a function, why should I be told I can't pray when its a voluntary function I am attending? If prayer bothers you that much, why go to a voluntary function that includes prayer?

Also, is it a Church vs State issue when the athletic department is a separate entity from the University? Last I checked it is a free standing enterprise funded through donations, is that not correct?

Correct on all accounts.

 

[PowerSweep]

It's called Faith. Hebrews 11:1. Did you believe TN would beat FL? Believe an SEC team will win it all again? How about believing your girl is faithful to you? You haven't physically seen any of those things.

nONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE EXTRAORDINARY AND IN FACT HAPPEN ALL THE TIME...

HOW MANY PEOPLE SEE TALKING SNAKES AND A CHARACTER CALLED "THE DEVIL"?

 

[yoyoyoyo]

UT: Prayer before games not unconstitutional » Knoxville News Sentinel

 

[PowerSweep]

Here is my opinion. I choose to pray, someone else may not. We both chose to go to a function, why should I be told I can't pray when its a voluntary function I am attending? If prayer bothers you that much, why go to a voluntary function that includes prayer?

Also, is it a Church vs State issue when the athletic department is a separate entity from the University? Last I checked it is a free standing enterprise funded through donations, is that not correct?

Yes...at NASCAR...fine? At a city council meeting or school board meeting? No... at a university/govt public institution function? No to that also.

Is it your opinion that a 5 minute nondenominational devotional message before the game be acceptable? I think the answer to that question tells you that the difference between the pregame prayer and such is only a matter of degree.

 

[Tennman]

ummmmmm how about telling the freedom from religion group to cease and desist and mind their own business. I wanted to say something else but I will keep it civil.

Dear Tennessee administration. Tell them to go to HE!! or STFU

THank you:machgun:

 

[OrangeDog]

I think that it says.....

"Freedom OF Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion"

Sorry if that's already been said.... there are a few pages on this thread and I've been off for a while (in mourning)


.....by the way, florida says that any decision will have to go thru their University, since they have owned our field for several years. (hated to say that, but its a LEGAL thing)

 

[orange_peel]

Not Everyone is religious. I don't see why it's a big deal. I'm not religious but the prayer doesn't bother me so I don't why it should bother everyone else who is religious if they had a moment of silence instead. Pray then.

How about prayer is made mandatory at all UT events and the people that do not want to pray do not have to and if they do not want to listen they can stick their fingers in their ears.

 

[OrangeDog]

How about prayer is made mandatory at all UT events and the people that do not want to pray do not have to and if they do not want to listen they can stick their fingers in their ears.

Pass these out:

 

[PowerSweep]

UT: Prayer before games not unconstitutional » Knoxville News Sentinel

It's a loser because it's already been ruled on. Why waste the money? All it ever needed was for people and groups to challenge those that ignored the ruling...Now this one group is motivated to do that and one by one at colleges, high schools, and government functions they will bring it to an end. Moment of silence or a generic prayer which would be meaningless (no god/jesus christ mention, etc) is all that is allowed.

 

[rjl4tnvols]

Not everyone believes in god and having it forced in schools to be taught to everyone would cause nothing but trouble.

Oh really, because when God was allowed in schools guess what wasn't in our schools guns, drugs, alcohol, etc
So yeah allowing him in will cause trouble, seems to be taking him out caused it all.

 

[yoyoyoyo]

It's a loser because it's already been ruled on. Why waste the money? All it ever needed was for people and groups to challenge those that ignored the ruling...Now this one group is motivated to do that and one by one at colleges, high schools, and government functions they will bring it to an end. Moment of silence or a generic prayer which would be meaningless (no god/jesus christ mention, etc) is all that is allowed.

The difference here is UT Football and facilities are funded 100% with non-public money unlike UTC.

 

[utvolpj]

The difference here is UT Football and facilities are funded 100% with non-public money unlike UTC.

is Neyland not on public land?

 

[Ashevolle]

I think that it says.....

"Freedom OF Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion"

Sorry if that's already been said.... there are a few pages on this thread and I've been off for a while (in mourning)


.....by the way, florida says that any decision will have to go thru their University, since they have owned our field for several years. (hated to say that, but its a LEGAL thing)

Sad, but funny at the same time.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Oh really, because when God was allowed in schools guess what wasn't in our schools guns, drugs, alcohol, etc
So yeah allowing him in will cause trouble, seems to be taking him out caused it all.

I went to a Catholic high school back in the early 80s, and it had all of those things...drugs and alcohol in particular.

 

[Ashevolle]

I believe in God. I believe a teacher lived some 2000 years ago and his name was Jesus. I actually cannot prove either of those as a fact of knowledge. I accept that there was a historical Jesus based on cultural developments and limited scholarship. I also think Mohammed lived, and Abraham Lincoln. I have a bit more data on Lincoln.

Based on my readings of the Bible I think Jesus was a rebel against the established religious order. It seems ironic to me that much of what he taught is essentially basic common decency and many people today, the loudest and most persistent, who claim his title (Christian), in practice, reject much of his teachings. Their religion, in his words, is but traditions and rules taught by men. They are slaves to legalism and rituals and neglect the spirit.

It is as in the spirit of this thread amazing to me that people can listen to Jesus say don't be like the Pharisees and teachers of the law who stand on street corners to pray but rather go into your closet to pray and your heavenly Father who sees in secret will reward you in secret. Prayer should not be a boastful thing. I don't fully understand prayer but I believe in it. Not the street corner kind, the real kind, the kind Jesus talked about. I may be wrong about it but my thesis is based on some weird things that have happened in my life and my complete realization that it was far beyond my capacity to mentally grasp or explain. I think there is something there and maybe in time with new discoveries more will be understood by science. Science today does not have all the answers, not even most of the answers. I think it would be a giant leap to say it has even a few of the answers compared to what potentially could be known a billion years from now but I don't think there is anything that seperates science from true religion. In fact I think religion is truth and love. That's all it is in my view. Honesty and love. Truth is not written in a book. It is written in the heart. It is a living spirit and without Love it is powerless. Even Jesus said I will not judge you but my words will judge you. Many people worship some image of Jesus the man and neglect his words. Oh they honor him with their lips but as he warned their hearts are far from him. In the book of Revelation the rider on the horse (the good guy) has a name written on him and that name is the Word of God. If you think the word of God is the Bible then I think you miss the boat. If it's not in your heart then for you it doesn't exist. The Bible can be your path to the word of God as it were but there is a distinction to be discovered.


Jesus was a religious rule breaker of the first order and the mobs previously enslaved to those religious leaders and teachers who lorded over them followed him, so the story goes, so much so that in the end those establishment folks decided he had to go.

I think establishment religion today is the same religious spirit that existed in his day and were he to walk among us today he would be marked as an imposter.

I think there is a lot of history in the Bible. It is a record of a civilization and yes we can learn from human history. I think there are some high moral values one can learn if so inclined but those values are taught in many schools of thought, religious and otherwise.

I don't fully grasp as much about the universe or even biological life as some who are dedicated to the study of such things but I have some basic knowledge. What I don't understand I chalk up to the mystery of God and I don't accept claims that anyone else has a complete revelation.

One passage in the New Testament says that the letter kills but the spirit gives life and I've always taken that to mean one sort of has to weave what is learned from the Bible into its context with everything else including real life itself. Picking and choosing when to be literal and when to be insightful is in my view self righteous and deceitful. I think we have to be truly honest with ourself and if we are then we will afford other people the space to be honest with themselves and in many instances disagree with us. I recognize there is some possibility that I could be completely wrong about everything I think I know but the best I can do is be honest with myself. I could never be a Jim Jones follower.

One man considers one thing sacred, another man something else, but one should be convinced in his own mind. And if on some things you disagree then perhaps in time God will make it plain for you.

I have friends who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and that belief is based on some geneological record in the Bible beginning with the Genesis creation story. Peter writing in the New Testament says that people deliberately forget that with the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. Think about that and then just accept the fact that I'm not going to be a believer in the young earth theory because of someone else's interpretation of literature written a few thousand years ago. It's okay with me if you choose to believe that and I'll even go you one better. I'll admit that in some wierd inconceivable way you may turn out to be right but honestly now do you think it's really going to matter to either of us in the long run.

I don't believe God is a man. I don't believe God is a Human. I believe God outstretches my capacity to have a discriptive concept just as it is unlikely that I will ever travel several billion light years to reach the outer edge of the observable universe. Even if I could do that I would anticipate my concept of God would stretch far beyond that. In God we live and move and have our every being. The failure of most religions in my view is that they make God a man with supernatual powers. It is in my view a primitive model designed for relative ease of control by an establishmet.

The war on science by elements of establishment religions is in my view a means to an end, a means to maintaining power and control. It is dishonest and deceitful and destructive and history is littered with that record of destruction.

One of many amusing tidbits I take from the Bible is the claim that the Israelites were God's chosen people. Who wrote that? Answer: The Israelites. So in that same spirit I would like to proclaim that Tennessee is God's Chosen Football Team! I can do that because I am doing the writing and I am a Vol.

Finally, no greater truth do I know than this which also comes from the Bible, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowlege." If you already know all about God and Life and Everything then you don't really have any fear of the Lord. It's simple math. Fear = Beginning not end. Fear is in my view recognizing we may not be as smart and righteous as we may think and on many matters our understanding may be completely wrong.

If anyone took the time to read this well I could have gone on longer, all night even, but I didn't want anyone to fall out of an upper floor window as I have yet to discover the power to raise the dead. (Translation: I trade the overnight futures markets and tonight was a slow night).

Go Vols and Thank You God for your support of the Big Orange!

I'm not a believer (don't deny it, just not convinced). However, I have mad respect for your beliefs and position. Seems to be a well reasoned belief.

 

[UTFanForLife]

is Neyland not on public land?

Depends, does the state own it or was it paid for by the University? If it was paid for, then you would have to determine where the funds came from.

 

[UTFanForLife]

Yes...at NASCAR...fine? At a city council meeting or school board meeting? No... at a university/govt public institution function? No to that also.

Is it your opinion that a 5 minute nondenominational devotional message before the game be acceptable? I think the answer to that question tells you that the difference between the pregame prayer and such is only a matter of degree.

Football games are no different than Nascar, you pay for your ticket, you choose to go. If not mistaken, the Athletic Department basically bought a brand. They are not represented by the school. It's a completely private entity funded through donations. When you buy a ticket, funds don't go through UT, they go through the athletic department, same with concessions. So how is that different than nascar?

 

[PowerSweep]

The difference here is UT Football and facilities are funded 100% with non-public money unlike UTC.

who funds it is irrelevant...the AD is part of the university, a govt/public institution. Therefore they cannot promote belief in a deity, religion, or prayer.

Whether the AD runs a profit or has to subsidize the program with public funds has no bearing.

 

[iVol4Life]

They Took God out of schools, the work place and everyday life and now they want to take it out of football? And they wonder why we are so messed up.

Separation of church and state applies here.

 

[Wardie]

not everyone is religious. I don't see why it's a big deal. I'm not religious but the prayer doesn't bother me so i don't why it should bother everyone else who is religious if they had a moment of silence instead. Pray then.

you are not religious so that is why you don't get it!!!!

 

[utvolpj]

Here is my opinion. I choose to pray, someone else may not. We both chose to go to a function, why should I be told I can't pray when its a voluntary function I am attending? If prayer bothers you that much, why go to a voluntary function that includes prayer?

Also, is it a Church vs State issue when the athletic department is a separate entity from the University? Last I checked it is a free standing enterprise funded through donations, is that not correct?

who is saying you can't pray? Heck you can spend the entire 4 qtrs praying if you want. The difference is the organized part of it.

a moment of silence suits everyone's needs

 

[PowerSweep]

Football games are no different than Nascar, you pay for your ticket, you choose to go. If not mistaken, the Athletic Department basically bought a brand. They are not represented by the school. It's a completely private entity funded through donations. When you buy a ticket, funds don't go through UT, they go through the athletic department, same with concessions. So how is that different than nascar?

They are of course representing the school and are part of the university. That argument is going to be a non starter. Just because the donor's funds to UT are earmarked for athletic rather than educational purposes it doesn't matter.

By that logic if UT fell on hard times, started running a deficit, and the program had to be subsidized by general university funds they couldn't have pregame prayer but on years they ran a profit they could.

 

[Marietta_Volunteer]

But isn't it possible to do this even with the absence of a belief in God? Knowing right from wrong isn't necessarily a Christian/secular thing. Like the quote from Meditations by Marcus Aurelius says "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Why would I want to buy into a belief system where a "born-again" murderer or child rapist ends up in heaven simply because he asks for salvation from Jesus after being a piece of **** for most of his life as opposed to someone who spent their life trying to be a good person but simply never found cause to believe in something that there is no tangible evidence for. What kind of skewed form of "justice" is that?

I never said that. Essentially what I am saying is that, if you don't believe in God, then my wrong equals your right (hopefully). However, your wrong does not equal my right. In fact, it poses dire consequences.

Your Marcus Aurelius quote is a belief, but if you provided someone with life and free will wouldn't you like to be acknowledged for it? Remember, the Bible says that God created humans in his (not expressing gender) image. I take that to mean that all the qualities that humans show God also has. Therefore, to think a God would not want you to acknowledge what was given to you is a bit naive.

As to your reference to a "born again" murderer, the truth is we don't know the outcome of that. To quote the Bible, "God knows what is in each man's heart". I personally don't believe death bed "conversions" yield the results everyone thinks.

While I'm on a quoting frenzy, the Bible also says "Every man that says Lord, Lord will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." This speaks to people that claim Christianity, but as referred to by others, are hateful. "You will know them by their works". Another quote from the Bible that indicates how you can identify a true Christian. Christians get a bad name, not from haters, but from people that use the label for themselves but they are truly not.

God only asks 3 basic things from Christians:
1) Expose to people, that do not know, what God has done for them
2) Treat people like you want to be treated
3) Never be ashamed of what you believe

I was very clear on #1. It does not say force, kill or harass those that do know but choose not to accept. Similarly, if you do not believe I would hope you follow #2.

 

[UTFanForLife]

who funds it is irrelevant...the AD is part of the university, a govt/public institution. Therefore they cannot promote belief in a deity, religion, or prayer.

Whether the AD runs a profit or has to subsidize the program with public funds has no bearing.

That is factually incorrect. The UT AD is a private entity with no association with the University. Funded directly through private funds, therefore making it a private organization. They make donations to the University, which is a tax write off, just like any other charitable donation of any business.

The UT AD is not a state organization.