Praying Before Game WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT UT (merged)

[Orange_Crush]

This is just completely incorrect - I would suggest this for a primer - A Brief History of Time: Stephen Hawking: 9780553380163: Amazon.com: Books

there is also an illustrated updated version you could try

see the chapter on time and why it doesnt make sense to even discuss time prior to the event of the big bang

Actually, I believe that was my point.

Whatever caused the Big Bang is outside of the laws of nature, thus 'supernatural'.

 

[volprof]

Well, we do have to remember that we are finite beings discussing infinite concepts (if you look at it from the Christian theological perspective, that is, since we believe that God is infinitely intelligent, powerful, etc...). I would not believe in any God that I could completely comprehend.

The Bible does not teach a schism between the concepts of God's will and man's free will. Any impossibility between the two is rooted in philosophy.

The Bible teaches that God is infinitely powerful.

It teaches that He is infinitely intelligent and knowing.

It teaches that God is outside of time, thus isn't surprised by any decision ever made.

It teaches that God has an overall will that can not be thwarted.

It teaches that He has a will that he allows to be thwarted, out of respect for man's free will (because can love and true relationship ever exist without free will?)

So, God allows man to choose his own destiny, out of respect for His creation. But His overall wish is for everyone to be freed from the penalty of death through sin. So, He sent His Son to take that penalty and offer salvation through grace/faith.

He revealed Himself in such a way that he can be discerned and known, yet with plausible deniability to allow free will.

He is powerful and intelligent enough to make all things work out according to His divine plan that those who would respond to His message will respond to His message.

Back to the US sovereignty illustration.

Just because people speed does not mean that the lawmakers aren't sovereign. Nor does it mean that their desire is anything except for people to abide by the posted speed limit.

I get what you're saying, but I guess we need to clarify our notions of God's will. I'm referring to the notion held by a good deal of American Christians (if not necessarily the Bible, although it may; I'm not sure) that God is proactive in every aspect of their day-to-day lives. In other words, God's will determines whether I become sick, recover, or die from said sickness at the age of 21, 31, 41, or whenever. This in itself would not seem to directly conflict with free will, but, by this same logic, God's will also determines whether or not I choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch, although most people never apply it that far because doing so would seem preposterous. Perhaps this is a gross simplification of the actual notion of God's will given from scriptures, but this notion (which people do indeed hold) conflicts with the notion of free will, in my opinion.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Without the Old Testament, you don't have a New Testament. The purpose of the OT was to point the coming of Jesus, thus a new covenant. The Midianites, Amelikites, Edomites, and Canaanites etc. all were killed because they were worshiping other gods, and denying the commandments of God, while living unholy lives. Nothing more.

I sort of admire how casually you can justify repeated acts of genocide, where entire populations are wiped out simply because God is jealous that they aren't worshipping him. Including children who are too young to worship anything.

If God knew ahead of time that he was going to be introducing a new covenant based on a turn-the-other-cheek morality once Jesus arrived, why was he such a bloodthirsty murdering monster during the time of Moses and Joshua?

 

[Ashevolle]

The laws of cause and effect are rooted in the concept of sequential time. The cause of sequential time can not be sequential time. The cause of sequential time must transcend sequential time. Thus, the cause of sequential time need not have a cause, since there could, by definition, not have been anything 'before' the cause of sequential time.

Whatever caused the Universe is by definition 'supernatural' (i.e. transcending nature). It is the only solution for the universe as we know it since:

From nothing, nothing comes.
The Universe is something.
Something outside of the constraints of our natural laws must have caused the 'something' that we experience as the natural universe.

Why couldn't our universe have been created by natural causes. It is commonly theorized within theoretical physics that our universe may have been created by the singularity of a super massive black hole. Mathematically, it has been theorized that the physics within a black hole could have caused what we call the "big bang."

 

[Ashevolle]

Where did we come from? Just curious your opinion

I don't have an opinion. I don't think we have the capacity to understand it currently. Perhaps society will someday unlock the secrets of the universe, but I am highly skeptical it will happen in my lifetime. I think any theory on my part (or anyone else's) is conjecture at this point. There are infinite possibilities, imo.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I'll commend you for knowing your covenants, but you don't see a problem with any of this, even if they are for specific times, peoples, and places? And I admit that the Old Testament covenant doesn't appear universal, because the only people that mattered were Jews. I think the acceptance of Christ's teachings, by nature, requires universal law, does it not? Otherwise, what is the point of it? A religion like Christianity is useless if it is not universal, otherwise there is no point for everyone (or even anyone) to follow Christ's teachings.

Christ made the NT covenant universal explicitly. NT theology explains the purposes of the old covenants through the lens of the NT covenant of grace. As such, Christian theology is internally consistent.

:hi:

 

[Vercingetorix]

:crazy:

Where is god when others are praying to stay alive? Did you just pray harder? Or does he just care more about you and your family?

When a little girl gets well, it's "God saved her!" When other little girls die, it's "Well, we don't know why bad things happen."

What kind of God randomly and occasionally intervenes to save a person or two here and there, but stands by and lets something like the tsunami in Japan happen?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I get what you're saying, but I guess we need to clarify our notions of God's will. I'm referring to the notion held by a good deal of American Christians (if not necessarily the Bible, although it may; I'm not sure) that God is proactive in every aspect of their day-to-day lives. In other words, God's will determines whether I become sick, recover, or die from said sickness at the age of 21, 31, 41, or whenever. This in itself would not seem to directly conflict with free will, but, by this same logic, God's will also determines whether or not I choose to eat an apple or an orange for lunch, although most people never apply it that far because doing so would seem preposterous. Perhaps this is a gross simplification of the actual notion of God's will given from scriptures, but this notion (which people do indeed hold) conflicts with the notion of free will, in my opinion.

The Bible explicitly and implicitly teaches that much in our lives are the result of our choices.

However, it is also explicit (Romans 8:28) in that He is powerful and "intelligent" enough to work things out for our ultimate good. (Does that mean we will all recover from sickness, get rich, etc...? No. Just that all will work out for our eventual good.)

 

[volprof]

Christ made the NT covenant universal explicitly. NT theology explains the purposes of the old covenants through the lens of the NT covenant of grace. As such, Christian theology is internally consistent.

:hi:

So Christ's covenant is the inevitable outcome of Mosaic law? Furthermore, Mosaic law is a universal law. Of course, it only applied to Jews, because, as I stated earlier they were the only ones that mattered. My thing is I just don't see how we can have different universal laws, especially for different times, people, and places. By definition, a universal law applies to all time. Anyhow, we'll just have to disagree on this issue.

 

[Jax_Vol]

So Christ's covenant is the inevitable outcome of Mosaic law? Furthermore, Mosaic law is a universal law. Of course, it only applied to Jews, because, as I stated earlier they were the only ones that mattered. My thing is I just don't see how we can have different universal laws, especially for different times, people, and places. By definition, a universal law applies to all time. Anyhow, we'll just have to disagree on this issue.

Are you a professor at UT? if so, did you see the Doonesbury cartoon from Sunday's newspaper? I found that to be very offensive. Your thoughts?

 

[SCvol333]

Stephens hawkings book is a bunch of hypothesis and theories....he even says that noone knows and he mentions god a lot in his book.

I think a reread is in order - also note the word primer - the uncertainty principle in quantum is really the whole key - it doesnt limit the idea of there being the possibility of a God but it does limit what that God would be like - if you are okay with your God being basically a roulette player okay with any number of combinations/universes/worlds that could have come out of a Big Bang with no real connection to anything in it then you can still have a God

but i don't really think that is what most people and certainly not Christians mean when they mention the word God

EDIT...also he is one of the most intelligent people in human history so get the name right

 

[Orange_Crush]

Why couldn't our universe have been created by natural causes. It is commonly theorized within theoretical physics that our universe may have been created by the singularity of a super massive black hole. Mathematically, it has been theorized that the physics within a black hole could have caused what we call the "big bang."

And the physics within a black hole end in a "singularity", correct? Or have things changed since I studied on this? (Not being a smart-___. Seriously asking.)

A singularity pretty much describes the time when our natural laws break down. Thus, it is 'supernatural' by definition.

The fact of the matter is that mathematical physics show all the natural laws breaking down at the 'singularity' of 'creation'.

If, by your question, you are asking whether our universe was created in another, similar universe, with exactly the same laws?

(A) You are only pushing the question back one step. The original question still exists in that Universe, and the one before, etc...

(B) We can not test or investigate the "parent" universe, thus it is 'supernatural' by that definition. It is no longer science and now resides in the realm of faith.

 

[volprof]

The Bible explicitly and implicitly teaches that much in our lives are the result of our choices.

However, it is also explicit (Romans 8:28) in that He is powerful and "intelligent" enough to work things out for our ultimate good. (Does that mean we will all recover from sickness, get rich, etc...? No. Just that all will work out for our eventual good.)

This may be a matter of semantics, but this to me seems to counter the notion of free will. If God is behind the scenes working things out for our eventual good, then he possesses a direct hand in our choices, logically speaking. Anyhow, I'm not a theologian, and I admit to not knowing the Bible very well. A lot of these things I'm still sorting out myself, so I also don't claim to have any definitive take here. I could be wrong.

 

[WinchesterVol]

When a little girl gets well, it's "God saved her!" When other little girls die, it's "Well, we don't know why bad things happen."

What kind of God randomly and occasionally intervenes to save a person or two here and there, but stands by and lets something like the tsunami in Japan happen?

I am in a business thata witnesses horrible things everyday. I cannot answer why there is suffering in this world. But no matter what I will never question God. The whole question comes to down to freedom of religion. If the University of Tennessee wants to say a prayer before a football game, this is America, they have that right.

If you don't agree, you should respect the overwhelming majority that agrees with it. If not, well you can move to one of the 21 countries that hate America and burning our flag and cursing our country at this time.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

The point isn't that a Muslim is praying, but the fact is that the event isn't a Muslim event. If a Mosque was holding an event, who do you think would lead the participants in prayer? The Imam that's who. With that being said, you are subject to the host. Is it right for me as a Christian to go to a Muslim or Atheist sponsored event and demand a Christian prayer of sorts? Naw man.

College football is a Christian-sponsored event?

 

[Burhead]

Oh, but it does. look throughout history across the great empires..............as soon as morality goes, so does the culture and empire.

Ask Israel about God and how He factors into their survival and success. The only middle east country not dominated by Muslims and not still living in the middle ages.

I asked this earlier but if God is all powerful he is above playing human politics or siding with this country or that country. Also why don't you go visit the UAE, Jordan, etc. Not all Mid-East countries are terrible.

 

[volprof]

Are you a professor at UT? if so, did you see the Doonesbury cartoon from Sunday's newspaper? I found that to be very offensive. Your thoughts?

I teach there, yes. And no, I'm not familiar with the cartoon.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So Christ's covenant is the inevitable outcome of Mosaic law? Furthermore, Mosaic law is a universal law. Of course, it only applied to Jews, because, as I stated earlier they were the only ones that mattered. My thing is I just don't see how we can have different universal laws, especially for different times, people, and places. By definition, a universal law applies to all time. Anyhow, we'll just have to disagree on this issue.

I think you missed my point. I apologize and will try to make it clearer, and be more specific.

The OT covenants were specific to certain people for certain times. For instance, before the flood, mankind ate vegetarian diets. After the flood, mankind was given meat to eat. Israel was given specific "clean" meats they could eat.

This would be similar to me, as a father, saying:

To a 2 year old son... Sure thing, I'll let you lay in the play pen with a girl your age.

To my 7 year old son. OK. Feel free to sleep over with your female friend from school.

To my 16 year old son... No way in heck you are sleeping over with your girlfriend.

(Simply stated, different rules for different times)

Jesus said that Israel had misinterpreted the law. Paul taught that the law was given to prove that we could not keep it. It was a mirror to show us our dirty faces. It was a doctor that gave us the terminal results.

Having seen our sinfulness from the law, we turn to God's grace through faith in Christ to save us. We then too turn to Christ to wash our faces and help us wash our faces by keeping the "perfect law" by loving God and loving our neighbor "upon which all of the law and the prophets hang".

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Jax_Vol]

I teach there, yes. And no, I'm not familiar with the cartoon.

You are not familiar with Doonesbury? Garry Trudeau? gheez, i thought everybody read that one. Ok, let me dig around a little here...

Doonesbury Strip

 

[PowerSweep]

Ashvolle, your unwillingness you believe and accept God for you He is, is why you would be considered carnal minded. Ok, you sit in a chair for the first time, but you Believe it will hold you up. You get on a plane, not knowing if it will crash, but you Believe it will get you where you're going. Same as an elevator, bridge etc. It's Faith. You don't have to see it to believe it. Hebrews 11:1 gives the definition of Faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." You haven't seen a pay check this week, but you have Faith it will be given to you or direct deposited in an account for you. You probably have Faith that we'll beat Akron too right? So, if you can have Faith in a win, why can't you have the very same Faith in God? Believe in Him for all your needs? Life is more calm, and things that upset you, don't bother you as much when you let God have His way in your life. Let His Word be a lamp to your feet and a Light to your path. I'm going to pray that God draws you and helps you understand or use me to bring more clarity to your Faith.

GOOD GRIEF...NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

even if you had "faith" that the opposite would happen...at least planes actually have crashed. I know it feels good to think you have an imaginary friend following you through life, but don't bring that crap to public forums, especially govt/public ones.

No need to be offended christians...just pray to yourself...making everyone else listen to that silliness infringes upon their rights.

 

[volbeast33]

When a little girl gets well, it's "God saved her!" When other little girls die, it's "Well, we don't know why bad things happen."

What kind of God randomly and occasionally intervenes to save a person or two here and there, but stands by and lets something like the tsunami in Japan happen?

You are a very angry sounding person....don't act for a second like you know anything about the bible or what god says or does.

 

[Ashevolle]

And the physics within a black hole end in a "singularity", correct? Or have things changed since I studied on this? (Not being a smart-___. Seriously asking.)

A singularity pretty much describes the time when our natural laws break down. Thus, it is 'supernatural' by definition.

The fact of the matter is that mathematical physics show all the natural laws breaking down at the 'singularity' of 'creation'.

If, by your question, you are asking whether our universe was created in another, similar universe, with exactly the same laws?

(A) You are only pushing the question back one step. The original question still exists in that Universe, and the one before, etc...

(B) We can not test or investigate the "parent" universe, thus it is 'supernatural' by that definition. It is no longer science and now resides in the realm of faith.

Agreed, to a point. It exceeds out understanding of physics. Therefore, I'm sure our model of the natural world will shift if we gain a higher understanding of the laws of nature. If by supernatural, you mean beyond our current understanding, I'll accept that, however, I would define that as still being part of the natural world and defined by science (just a science we don't fully understand).

In the end, I'm just not satisfied that because we understand everything to have a beginning that that means that God must be the beginning. That conclusion does not fix the inherent problem, but creates a convenient solution unsupported by data. If the fact that everything comes from something is supposed to mean there is a God, then it doesn't excuse the contradiction that God too must have come from something. If God didn't have to come from something, then why does the universe/multiverse have to come from something?

 

[tm3]

When a little girl gets well, it's "God saved her!" When other little girls die, it's "Well, we don't know why bad things happen."

What kind of God randomly and occasionally intervenes to save a person or two here and there, but stands by and lets something like the tsunami in Japan happen?

because the japanese are atheists ... you are not keeping up

 

[Regulator]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

 

[volsforever27]

Sigh.