question about Christianity

#51
#51
So because I don't agree with you, I'm being an ass? Why do I have to call it a miracle if I believe it's a story about magical powers.
 
#52
#52
Magic:
1
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
2
a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
3
: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
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Myth:
1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
2
a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism &#8212; Orde Coombs>
b : an unfounded or false notion
3
: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
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What is wrong with these terms?
 
#53
#53
Gramps said:
Science can and has proven a lot of things but it has not proven that man came from a primate.

Neither can one prove creation.

You believe man came from a monkey.
I believe God created man.

Both are beliefs.

If you want to believe you evolved from a primate, that is your right to do so.
It is also my right to believe that God created man.

To you creation is a myth and story.
Me, I cannot see how anyone can look at this world and all in it , how perfect everything is and believe it just happened.

You believe science will one day prove man evolved from a primate.... that is your faith in a theory.

I believe one day Christ is going to return and bring this world to an end. That is my faith in God.


You say faith is not rational to you... Yet you have faith in a theory... no more -no less... it's a theory.
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That's precisely what you're doing - you're saying a magical being did everything.
 
#55
#55
Gramps said:
I cannot see how anyone can look at this world and all in it , how perfect everything is and believe it just happened.
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Everything is perfect?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Nfw_LmdNU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt9YO07Jy6E&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOH0rmSNZlU&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slx5o3Mmpv8&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qBg71E_17g&feature=related[/youtube]
 
#56
#56
One side believes random gases and particles just existed and happened to explode in a perfect way, the other believes a being just existed and created it all. Why is one more believable than the other? Both are believing in something that, when it comes down to it, they just can't prove or be 100% positive about. It makes it too easy for either side to poke holes in an argument. It's a pointless argument to get in to. No reason to berate anyone for what they believe.
 
#57
#57
KiffinKiller said:
So because I don't agree with you, I'm being an ass? Why do I have to call it a miracle if I believe it's a story about magical powers.
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You absolutely don't. I wouldn't expect you to. You just don't have to be belittle what I believe.
It's like if I compared one of your scientific theories to something you'd see in a Michael Crichton book. That would be me trying to make you feel like a moron. I wouldn't do that in an discussion like this, because it would immediately make you defensive. Defensive is the opposite of open-minded.
I believe in miracles...and not just winning hockey matches. I believe in stories of miracles that consistently mirror teachings from the Bible. I believe that the Shroud of Turin just might be what we think it is. You don't. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with, is when people talk down to Christians, or any religious person, like they know the truth without any shadow of a doubt.
You say you shouldn't have to prove that Christ is a myth because it's just a story. But why not? If it's so obvious that you're right, why not step up to the challenge and prove billions and billions of people throughout history wrong? "Just a story" is Peter Pan. You don't have to prove that wrong because nobody believes it to be real. Christianity is supported because of the printed word of the Bible and the way his disciples lived after His death. Why does it bother you that so many people believe?
 
#58
#58
I found a book today. Only I can read it though - it's written by God. The books says you're all wrong - the universe was created by a giant cow who farts out dark matter.

This was a joke, btw.
 
#60
#60
I set off a firecracker in a cup of dog crap and a new universe was made.
This was also a joke.
 
#61
#61
Panthro said:
You absolutely don't. I wouldn't expect you to. You just don't have to be belittle what I believe.
It's like if I compared one of your scientific theories to something you'd see in a Michael Crichton book. That would be me trying to make you feel like a moron. I wouldn't do that in an discussion like this, because it would immediately make you defensive. Defensive is the opposite of open-minded.
I believe in miracles...and not just winning hockey matches. I believe in stories of miracles that consistently mirror teachings from the Bible. I believe that the Shroud of Turin just might be what we think it is. You don't. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with, is when people talk down to Christians, or any religious person, like they know the truth without any shadow of a doubt.
You say you shouldn't have to prove that Christ is a myth because it's just a story. But why not? If it's so obvious that you're right, why not step up to the challenge and prove billions and billions of people throughout history wrong? "Just a story" is Peter Pan. You don't have to prove that wrong because nobody believes it to be real. Christianity is supported because of the printed word of the Bible and the way his disciples lived after His death. Why does it bother you that so many people believe?
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It could be a story. Scientologists believe something ridiculous written in some science fiction novel. The church of latter day saints is based on some scripture found by the one man who could read it. Both of these things have large followings - just because you're religion is older - doesn't make it anymore likely to be true.
 
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#63
#63
Why do you want him to change his mind so bad? He's not trying to shove anything down your throat, just defending his own position. All you're doing is downing on what he believes.
 
#64
#64
KiffinKiller said:
It could be a story. Scientologists believe something ridiculous written in some science fiction novel. The church of latter day saints is based on some scripture found by the one man who could read it. Both of these things have large followings - just because you're religion is older - doesn't make it anymore likely to be true.
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Nor did I try to bash someone else's religion. You're the one who knows it all. I will just leave that to you.
 
#65
#65
Philosophy and theology (reason and faith) used to go hand-in-hand in Christendom. Soren Kierkegaard then posited that not only does faith not require reason but that the use of reason is, in fact, abominable in the discussion of faith. Since Kierkegaard, certain Christians have separated themselves more and more from philosophy and science, and express that only faith can explain faith (if you do not see the circular logic here, then I do not know what else to say). The most interesting bit about Kierkegaard and his "revelation" is that according to today's knowledge of psychology he would be diagnosed as a sociopath.

A spider can cause so much amusement. One thinks of one's schooldays. When one is at the age when no aesthetic considerations are taken in the choice of one's teachers and the latter are for that very reason often very boring, how inventive one is! How amusing to catch a fly and keep it imprisoned under a nut shell and watch how it rushes about with the shell! What pleasure one can get by cutting a hole in the desk to imprison a fly in it, and spy down on it through a piece of paper!

Either/Or p. 233
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So one must guard against friendship. How is a friend defined? A friend is not what philosophy calls 'the necessary other', but the superfluous third. What are the ceremonies of friendship? One thous and thees in a glass, one opens an artery, one mixes one's blood with the friend's. the exact arrival of this moment is hard to determine, but it mysteriously proclaims itself, one feels it, one can no longer use the formal 'You' in addressing each other. Once this feeling has occurred, one can never prove mistaken, as was Gert Westphaler, who discovered that he had been drinking with the public hangman. - What are the infallible marks of friendship? Antiquity answers, idem velle, idem nolle, ea demum firma amicitia, and extremely boring at that. What significance has friendship? Mutual assistance in word and deed. So two friends form a close association in order to be everything for one another, regardless that all the one can be for the other is in the way.

Either/Or p. 237
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One must know how the mood affects oneself, and in all probability others, before putting it on. One strokes the fine strings first to elicit pure tones and see what there is in a person, and the intermediate tones follow later. The more practice you have, the more readily you will be convinced that often there is much in a person which one never considers. Teasing in particular is an excellent means of exploration.

Either/Or p. 239
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Not exactly the "authority figure" I would want to follow precedents from.
 
#66
#66
I believe its a grand story to explain faith. I have no problem with faith - it helps people. I'm just arguing my position - that faith has no basis in fact.
 
#68
#68
Panthro said:
You say you shouldn't have to prove that Christ is a myth because it's just a story. But why not? If it's so obvious that you're right, why not step up to the challenge and prove billions and billions of people throughout history wrong? "Just a story" is Peter Pan. You don't have to prove that wrong because nobody believes it to be real. Christianity is supported because of the printed word of the Bible and the way his disciples lived after His death. Why does it bother you that so many people believe?
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Unless you go out and prove that Hinduism is a fictional myth, you have no credibility in making the above argument.
 
#69
#69
Panthro said:
Nor did I try to bash someone else's religion. You're the one who knows it all. I will just leave that to you.
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You are the one taking offense from the accurate use of the terms "magic" and "mythology". Read a dictionary and understand that even for those who do believe in your divinity these terms would accurately be applied.
 
#70
#70
Panthro, what do you think of greek mythology? I'm not being antogonistic, I would like to know you're opinion on the matter.
 
#73
#73
From what I have read regarding Christian Canon, Doctrine and Dogma.

A - Authoritative Aspect of Scripture
B - Belief in Jesus, as the Son of God
C - Belief in the Holy Spirit
D - Conscious Acceptance of Baptism
E - Internal Instigation of the Holy Spirit

If A then B;
If B then C;
If C then D;
If D then E;
If E then A...

If not A then not B;
If not B then not C;
If not C then not D;
If not D then not E;
If not E then not A...

The argument for the logical proof that Scripture has Divine Authority for anyone is completely circular.
 
#74
#74
Science, since it works within nature, can never answer the ultimate question of how nature came to exist (since that would require working outside of nature); however, that does not mean the default answer is Christianity any more than it means the default answer is Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, Judaism, etc. It simply means that the default answer should start with a generic Deism.
 
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