Rank the US Presidents

#302
#302
Tastylicks said:
We are the "United" States of America. If you are a state and you aren't "united" it is attempting to end that concept
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Why are we "United"? That was a choice, not a mandate. The concept doesn't end if some states decide to leave.
 
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#303
#303
Warring against states to force them to remain in the Union goes against everything our Founding Fathers stood for. They themselves fought a war to be independent. The difference is they won. That doesn't change their ideology.
 
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#304
#304
Tastylicks said:
We are the "United" States of America. If you are a state and you aren't "united" it is attempting to end that concept
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Then why didn't France/Germany invade the UK for leaving the EU? That is a political and economic union of member states loosely governed by a constitution.

Even the Federalists didn't want the US to turn into the iron fisted US Government effectively run by 3 or so population centers. Of course, the anti-Federalists are having the last laugh as every one of their premonitions have come true.
 
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#305
#305
AM64 said:
Most people don't seem to know that there were at least two different evolutions of the KKK. The KKK that Forrest would have known did start as a means to harass Reconstructionists; it was ended in1872. The second iteration began in 1915 well after Forrest's death. Reconstruction was the most divisive and shameful chapter in US history.
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Damn, I would have thought that the most shameful period in American history involved slavery or maybe the internment of japanese americans during WWII.
 
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#306
#306
ClearwaterVol said:
Damn, I would have thought that the most shameful period in American history involved slavery or maybe the internment of japanese americans during WWII.
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Learning alot of "alternative facts" in this thread:

-Lincoln invaded the peaceful South, didnt free the slaves and was a racist, white supremacist.

-Nathan Forrest founded the racist terrorist KKK, but wasn't a racist or violent

-Reconstruction was the most shameful period of American history. Not slavery or Japanese internment.
😁😁😁
 
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#307
#307
ClearwaterVol said:
Damn, I would have thought that the most shameful period in American history involved slavery or maybe the internment of japanese americans during WWII.
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We've had a lot of "shameful periods". I can see an argument for Reconstruction. I've not done the research to verify, but I can easily see a rise in violence towards and the lynchings of black people during that time period. Under slavery, they were deemed property, thus had monetary value. With the abolition of slavery and the granting of citizenship and "equality", they were a huge target of resentment from racists in both the North and the South. I'd have to look it up, but I would think the violence levels rose during that time.

Treating anyone hostile or different simply because of their race or ethnicity is abhorrent.
 
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#308
#308
Tastylicks said:
Learning alot of "alternative facts" in this thread:

-Lincoln invaded the peaceful South, didnt free the slaves and was a racist, white supremacist.

-Nathan Forrest founded the racist terrorist KKK, but wasn't a racist or violent

-Reconstruction was the most shameful period of American history. Not slavery or Japanese internment.
😁😁😁
Click to expand...

I believe you are incapable of learning
 
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#309
#309
Tastylicks said:
Learning alot of "alternative facts" in this thread:

-Lincoln invaded the peaceful South, didnt free the slaves and was a racist, white supremacist.

-Nathan Forrest founded the racist terrorist KKK, but wasn't a racist or violent

-Reconstruction was the most shameful period of American history. Not slavery or Japanese internment.
😁😁😁
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The South did attempt to secede peacefully. -Fact

The 13th Amendment, not Abraham Lincoln, abolished slavery. -Fact

Abraham Lincoln did hold some racist views, consistent with the time he lived in. -Fact

NBF was part of the KKK and at one point in his life held extremely racist views. In his later life, he became a born-again Christian and changed his ways, even crusading for black rights. -Fact

This country has several "shameful" periods. -Fact.

All of this is easily verifiable if you do a little research. The unwillingness of some to educate themselves never ceases to amaze me.
 
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#310
#310
I have started an ambitious goal of reading a biography of every American President. Just started so all I can tell you is George Washington kicked ass.

Very interesting to read about how little interest he had in being President and how much he hated the pomp and circumstance of the public aspects of the job.
 
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#311
#311
Kingston Vol said:
I have started an ambitious goal of reading a biography of every American President. Just started so all I can tell you is George Washington kicked ass.

Very interesting to read about how little interest he had in being President and how much he hated the pomp and circumstance of the public aspects of the job.
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Which is what made him a great President. He didn't really want the job, but recognized the need for him to take it. He was all about the country, and hated the politics.
 
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#312
#312
Weezer said:
Which is what made him a great President. He didn't really want the job, but recognized the need for him to take it. He was all about the country, and hated the politics.
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Regarding Washington, in comparison to more recent Presidents, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, I wonder how well Presidents are graded based on how the country feels about them before they begin their term. Washington was (obviously) a war hero and considered the father of the country, so the populace was behind him 100%. Today's Presidents don't get that benefit, and I wonder how that affects their standing historically.
 
#313
#313
Weezer said:
Which is what made him a great President. He didn't really want the job, but recognized the need for him to take it. He was all about the country, and hated the politics.
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Neither did Lincoln, Lee, or Davis but they had no choice and fulfilled their duty
 
#314
#314
Tastylicks said:
Learning alot of "alternative facts" in this thread:

-Lincoln invaded the peaceful South, didnt free the slaves and was a racist, white supremacist.

-Nathan Forrest founded the racist terrorist KKK, but wasn't a racist or violent

-Reconstruction was the most shameful period of American history. Not slavery or Japanese internment.
😁😁😁
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1 and 3 are garbage takes. 2 has always interested me because of how Forrest should be seen versus how he -is- seen. This usually devolves to a philosophical debate at it's core that effectively boils down to:


Is a person chiefly judged by everything they did, one thing they did or how they reflected on their actions and changed their behavior
 
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#315
#315
Kingston Vol said:
Regarding Washington, in comparison to more recent Presidents, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, I wonder how well Presidents are graded based on how the country feels about them before they begin their term. Washington was (obviously) a war hero and considered the father of the country, so the populace was behind him 100%. Today's Presidents don't get that benefit, and I wonder how that affects their standing historically.
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Modern day Presidents are intellectual midgets compared to the Founding Fathers. The Presidency post Andrew Jackson has produced some very ill prepared Presidents but nothing like the last three decades
 
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#319
#319
landscapingvol said:
Modern day Presidents are intellectual midgets compared to the Founding Fathers. The Presidency post Andrew Jackson has produced some very ill prepared Presidents but nothing like the last three decades
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I'm not sure if I agree about Founding Fathers - at least not all of them. Washington, for example, was not an intellectual and he carried that insecurity with him throughout his life. It helped him govern.

I think most of our issue today regarding our elected leaders is that they (and we) have all grown up as the world's preeminent superpower and #1 on the global stage. I think there is something to be said for struggle molding our leaders (and populace) beforehand.
 
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#321
#321
Kingston Vol said:
I'm not sure if I agree about Founding Fathers - at least not all of them. Washington, for example, was not an intellectual and he carried that insecurity with him throughout his life. It helped him govern.

I think most of our issue today regarding our elected leaders is that they (and we) have all grown up as the world's preeminent superpower and #1 on the global stage. I think there is something to be said for struggle molding our leaders (and populace) beforehand.
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Washington may not have been a political genius in comparison to Madison, Jefferson, or Hamilton but he was very well educated and well trained.
 
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#322
#322
agent|orange said:
1 and 3 are garbage takes. 2 has always interested me because of how Forrest should be seen versus how he -is- seen. This usually devolves to a philosophical debate at it's core that effectively boils down to:


Is a person chiefly judged by everything they did, one thing they did or how they reflected on their actions and changed their behavior
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I believe the person should be judged based upon everything. NBF unquestionably did both great harm and great good for the rights of blacks. The problem is that the bad he did is still being felt today.
 
#324
#324
ClearwaterVol said:
I believe the person should be judged based upon everything. NBF unquestionably did both great harm and great good for the rights of blacks. The problem is that the bad he did is still being felt today.
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Because it's not even allowable to talk about his endeavors late in life... or to even use actual Congressional evidence to argue against allegations of his KKK involvement.

His speech in Memphis are either the words of a complete psychopath, a man torn by great guilt after reflecting on his actions or a person who was the target of insurmountable slander based on his war record. His words, for that time, were incredibly forward and progressive. Something isn't jiving.
 
#325
#325
ClearwaterVol said:
I believe the person should be judged based upon everything. NBF unquestionably did both great harm and great good for the rights of blacks. The problem is that the bad he did is still being felt today.
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I don't think you can blame the KKK entirely on NBF. For one, it's not like he was the only one who held those racist views at the time. And then you have to remember, his version of the KKK disbanded. Another group formed later and adopted the name. I don't think it fair he inherit that guilt. He carries the blame for his own sins committed during his life, but he shouldn't be blamed for sins committed by others, even if somewhat in his name. He did what he could to change.
 
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