Rank the US Presidents

#352
#352
Weezer said:
I actually don't disagree that we've become less educated as a nation. Hell, I think some posters on here prove that. But I disagree on the evolution of how we speak. People who who speak so eloquently and descriptive today tend to get labeled as "long-winded". Yet you can find that language in some writings. Maybe it ties in with how we've become a culture always in a rush over time?
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They are”long winded” because they don’t have to include expletives to carry on a conversation
 
#354
#354
Tastylicks said:
And who do we have to blame?

I think probably the same people who say the nation's greatest newspaper (NY Times) is the "enemy" and the nation's top epidemiologist (Fauci, MD) doesn't know anything but ...."twitter guy" does.
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I'd blame both Republicans and Democrats. They've been the only two major parties for how long now? The GOP was founded in 1854 with Lincoln as the first Republican to be elected President. The Democratic Party was founded in 1828 by supporters of Andrew Jackson. The GOP claims 19 Presidents to the Democrats 16. These are the people who have "led" our nation. Trying to blame one side over the other for the overall decline of anything is silly IMO. They've both contributed.
 
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#357
#357
Weezer said:
I'd blame both Republicans and Democrats. They've been the only two major parties for how long now? The GOP was founded in 1854 with Lincoln as the first Republican to be elected President. The Democratic Party was founded in 1828 by supporters of Andrew Jackson. The GOP claims 19 Presidents to the Democrats 16. These are the people who have "led" our nation. Trying to blame one side over the other for the overall decline of anything is silly IMO. They've both contributed.
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well duh but the people voted these presidents in so...
 
#358
#358
landscapingvol said:
He debated Douglas over the Senate seat in 1858 vs Douglas. He wasn’t even nominated until 1860 for President
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Yes. And they feared as soon as he was elected the South would try to secede. They feared correctly as South Carolina made the move in December 1860, Lincoln wasn't even inaugerated until March of 1861.

Which all seems weird to me now because people here say Lincoln was a racist, white supremacist who broke up the Union and wasn't interested in ending slavery. But the timeline doesn't quite match that theory.

If the rich white guys wanted to keep their slaves why would they secede upon the election of a white supremacist who was pro-slavery .... ??!?
 
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#359
#359
Tastylicks said:
well duh but the people voted these presidents in so...
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Yes, most voters are moronic sheep blindly following one party or the other with very little consideration of the quality of leader they are electing. Both Trump and Biden exemplify this IMO. Yet both sides brag on both individuals as if they are more than they are. I've seen you yourself express that partisanship. Before pledging your allegiance any further to the Dems, or any political party, you should stop and consider the quality of candidate they offer. We've been handed subpar choices for quite some time. People need to demand change and demand better. But they won't. They'll continue to be loyal sheep because that's who they are.
 
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#360
#360
Tastylicks said:
Yes. And they feared as soon as he was elected the South would try to secede. They feared correctly as South Carolina made the move in December 1960, Lincoln wasn't even inaugerated until March of 1861.

Which all seems weird to me now because people here say Lincoln was a racist, white supremacist who broke up the Union and wasn't interested in ending slavery. But the timeline doesn't quite match that theory.

If the rich white guys wanted to keep their slaves why would they secede upon the election of a white supremacist who was pro-slavery .... ??!?
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During that time period, it was not uncommon to be both racist and an abolitionist. Being against slavery didn't mean a person saw blacks as equal. Lincoln was an abolitionist, but he claimed he was willing to accept slavery in the South to preserve the Union. The South didn't trust him. Truthfully, they had good reason not to.
 
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#361
#361
landscapingvol said:
He debated Douglas over the Senate seat in 1858 vs Douglas. He wasn’t even nominated until 1860 for President
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Sounds like a guy that had to be convinced to take the nomination doesn't it?

After Abraham Lincoln's defeat in the race for the U.S. Senate, he spent the next sixteen months speaking and traveling all over the North making campaign speeches for numerous Republican candidates. His style avoided the wordy moral rhetoric of the abolitionists in favor of clear and simple logic. Lincoln was successful in laying the groundwork for his candidacy, since by the spring of 1860, many politicians were indebted to Lincoln for his support. Furthermore, because he was out of office and new to national prominence, he had offended no one in particular within the party. Most importantly, Lincoln had established a solid group of campaign managers and supporters who came to the Republican convention prepared to deal, maneuver, and line up votes for Lincoln.
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#363
#363
utvolpj said:
Just always find it interesting how different people define the "good old days" before everything went to crap
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I loved the "80's. Things may still have been crap, but they were fun, lol.
 
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#365
#365
utvolpj said:
Just always find it interesting how different people define the "good old days" before everything went to crap
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It's near impossible to say this country was -ever- good at any point without being branded some form of (*)-ist.

Education in this country has absolutely gone downhill. That's why, in a link I posted earlier I'm sure you missed, most people can't pass a 1912 exam from RURAL KENTUCKY.

EDIT: here is the exam:

Can You Pass This Test Originally Given to 8th Graders Living in Kentucky in 1912? | Open Culture

8th grade exam from a Kentucky County that didn't even have 10,000 people in it.


But yeah, it's my supposition that education has gone downhill in the US.
 
#366
#366
Tastylicks said:
Same thing
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People divorce every day. Most go their own way reasonably peacefully. Secession could have been the same kind of action. It's not at all unknown for divorced partners to reconcile later in life.

The fortunate thing at that time was the division would have been regional; the problems we face now are far worse because the split is largely urban/rural, but the discontent is there and is growing. Had the current state of dissatisfaction been the one that split the county, then you are right, it would likely be true civil war or revolution instead of a potentially peaceful separation.
 
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#367
#367
AM64 said:
People divorce every day. Most go their own way reasonably peacefully. Secession could have been the same kind of action. It's not at all unknown for divorced partners to reconcile later in life.

The fortunate thing at that time was the division would have been regional; the problems we face now are far worse because the split is largely urban/rural, but the discontent is there and is growing. Had the current state of dissatisfaction been the one that split the county, then you are right, it would likely be true civil war or revolution instead of a potentially peaceful separation.
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Never thought of it that way. Maybe killing a spouse asking for divorce should be legal under the "Lincoln precedent".


Sarcasm people. Learn to recognize it.
 
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#368
#368
Tastylicks said:
We are the "United" States of America. If you are a state and you aren't "united" it is attempting to end that concept
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We are the United States of America; meaning the states opted in to form a country of united states which could work in concert and could band together as necessary. That was the original intent - there were proponents of federalism, but the compromise was a uniting of states rather than a forced uniting of people ruled by a federal government in all things.
 
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#369
#369
agent|orange said:
It's near impossible to say this country was -ever- good at any point without being branded some form of (*)-ist.

Education in this country has absolutely gone downhill. That's why, in a link I posted earlier I'm sure you missed, most people can't pass a 1912 exam from RURAL KENTUCKY.

EDIT: here is the exam:

Can You Pass This Test Originally Given to 8th Graders Living in Kentucky in 1912? | Open Culture

8th grade exam from a Kentucky County that didn't even have 10,000 people in it.


But yeah, it's my supposition that education has gone downhill in the US.
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I likely would have had little trouble with that in 8th grade. My son is in 3rd and could probably do much of the math. They've gone over some of the govt basics too

But yes, many claiming a certain time as the good old days do so without acknowledging the terrible things happening to others at the same time. Even many sports have a post-integration qualifier more
 
#370
#370
landscapingvol said:
Davis and Lee both knew how the war would turn out if it came to it, both honored the wishes of their home states
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Robert E. Lee is interesting because he demonstrates what was common thought before the Civil War in terms of loyalty. He was offered command by both sides, but loyalty to state (Virginia) superseded loyalty to country. As I noted in a previous post, at the time of the Civil War, military regiments were still denoted by state. Prior to the war, Americans identified with their state far more than they did the country. And that's how it was when the Constitution was written. Emphasis was on states, not a powerful federal government. That is a corruption of what we were intended to be.
 
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#372
#372
Weezer said:
As a country, we've moved away from that type of speaking. It's not limited to Presidents. We've moved away from eloquence, and toward directness, straightforward-ness, over the decades.
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Probably because following generations couldn't understand. Trump's speech as abhorrent as it was is probably pretty reflective of the iPhone generation's competency in English.
 
#373
#373
landscapingvol said:
You are confusing fulfilling his duty with desiring it.
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He did desire it. He campaigned for the nomination for 2 years, built up political capital and came to the convention with a campaign team. How is that not wanting the nomination?
 
#374
#374
AM64 said:
People divorce every day. Most go their own way reasonably peacefully. Secession could have been the same kind of action. It's not at all unknown for divorced partners to reconcile later in life.

The fortunate thing at that time was the division would have been regional; the problems we face now are far worse because the split is largely urban/rural, but the discontent is there and is growing. Had the current state of dissatisfaction been the one that split the county, then you are right, it would likely be true civil war or revolution instead of a potentially peaceful separation.
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Then why did they take the 1st shots at Fort Sumter?

and do you really think the United States Army shouldn't have fought back...? o_O
 
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