Rank the US Presidents

[Weezer]

I heard he freed them from slavery. Seems like a big deal.

Again, untrue. The 13th Amendment did that.

 

[peaygolf]

There are people in this forum who think Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant and evil human being while also thinking the figurehead of the KKK who organized mass lynchings is the beacon of morality.

Pick up an actual book and read. Don’t start goose stepping because everyone else does.

The only reason I say anything is because it’s true. I’ve researched both Lincoln and Forest and did a term paper on the two of them.

You read school books and listen to the same people as you. You are ignorant. Ignorant is not stupid, it means uneducated on the subject, Read and know facts before you post. You can always have opinions, but you speak as if it’s fact.......it’s not

 

[AM64]

Cherry Picking??
Racist or racially insensitive.....whole bunch a people have lost their careers for being racially insensitive, not necessarily racist. But it’s ok for Lincoln to say flat out that blacks should not even intermingle with whites, and even said they were so unworthy that they should be shipped back to Africa?

Yes he was “against” slavery as a whole, but don’t ever say he wasn’t racist.


Edit: Now.......if you want to pretend or say he “changed his attitude, and saw that all men are equal, fine. Now if that’s the case and he changed as a human, then you need to feel the exact same thing towards Nathan Bedford Forest. Do some research on NBF, and not a textbook from school. See what he did later in life.....and don’t give me the KKK crap. It wasn’t against blacks, it was trying to find a way to keep out Yankees from being elected in the south. It wasn’t supposed be a violent club and when it became violent, he and several others left the Klan.

Most people don't seem to know that there were at least two different evolutions of the KKK. The KKK that Forrest would have known did start as a means to harass Reconstructionists; it was ended in1872. The second iteration began in 1915 well after Forrest's death. Reconstruction was the most divisive and shameful chapter in US history.

 

[Weezer]

Finally!!!!!! Weezer! You sir actually read and study history, not just the BS they teach in school. These same people have zero ides that George Washington owned slaves, as well as Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin. Jefferson raping a slave isn’t a big deal....I guess? Their monuments are in no threat to be removed.

Technically, because she was considered "property", then I guess Jefferson raped Sally Hemmings, but historically, there is a debate as to whether it was a consensual relationship. There is no way of truly knowing.

 

[Weezer]

There are people in this forum who think Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant and evil human being while also thinking the figurehead of the KKK who organized mass lynchings is the beacon of morality.

I don't think Abe was evil, but he certainly took some tyrannical, un-Constitutional actions.

 

[Weezer]

I noticed that the fact Lincoln ignored the Chief Justice of the United States ruling on his ability to suspend habeas corpus got totally ignored, as did Lincoln's expressed views on only limited suffrage for blacks.

 

[Tyler Durden]

View attachment 364373

Pick up an actual book and read. Don’t start goose stepping because everyone else does.

The only reason I say anything is because it’s true. I’ve researched both Lincoln and Forest and did a term paper on the two of them.

You read school books and listen to the same people as you. You are ignorant. Ignorant is not stupid, it means uneducated on the subject, Read and know facts before you post. You can always have opinions, but you speak as if it’s fact.......it’s not

Cool story bro, I'm sure the Turner Diaries taught you a lot about how awesome white supremacy is and that the teachings of NBF and any other KKK guy needs to live on forever.

 

[Weezer]

And for the record, it is possible to acknowledge the bad things Lincoln did while still crediting him with what good he did accomplish. Most people refuse to see him in his entirety.

 

[Weezer]

Cool story bro, I'm sure the Turner Diaries taught you a lot about how awesome white supremacy is and that the teachings of NBF and any other KKK guy needs to live on forever.

Here's you a book to read if you're open to educating yourself.

Nathan Bedford Forrest's Redemption: Kastler, Shane: 9781589808348: Amazon.com: Books


No doubt, he was a bad man at one point in his life, but by all accounts, he changed, or "evolved" to use BB's word. He eventually came to advocate for black rights.

 

[peaygolf]

I don't think Abe was evil, but he certainly took some tyrannical, un-Constitutional actions.

Absolutely, lots of good people have said or done things considered evil or racist or just bad.......

It’s not right that southerners are vilified and Northerners are exonerated , even though many had the same thoughts.

Now, my family during the war and reconstruction, lost pretty much everything. Do I get monetary repercussions from the north?

 

[AM64]

View attachment 364373

Pick up an actual book and read. Don’t start goose stepping because everyone else does.

The only reason I say anything is because it’s true. I’ve researched both Lincoln and Forest and did a term paper on the two of them.

You read school books and listen to the same people as you. You are ignorant. Ignorant is not stupid, it means uneducated on the subject, Read and know facts before you post. You can always have opinions, but you speak as if it’s fact.......it’s not

That's the big problem with textbooks that don't deal in absolutes. The people writing history texts weren't around when most of history was made. They rehash and condense from "sources" - which often means it's a guy with an agenda who picks sources and sifts facts that meet his agenda.

 

[peaygolf]

Cool story bro, I'm sure the Turner Diaries taught you a lot about how awesome white supremacy is and that the teachings of NBF and any other KKK guy needs to live on forever.

 

[AM64]

Here's you a book to read if you're open to educating yourself.

Nathan Bedford Forrest's Redemption: Kastler, Shane: 9781589808348: Amazon.com: Books


No doubt, he was a bad man at one point in his life, but by all accounts, he changed, or "evolved" to use BB's word. He eventually came to advocate for black rights.

There was certainly conflicting thought about slavery at the time that Forrest was involved, and we definitely view things differently today. However, we all have to consider the times before judging a person of that time, and that's were we should find fault in how we currently view people of the past who operated under the norms of the time. By 2050 (if the world survives) a lot of people are going to be asking what were they thinking in relation to things we normally do today. That's one big thing I wish came out of schools - it's much more worth knowing than facts about past events particularly when viewed by today's standards.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Absolutely, lots of good people have said or done things considered evil or racist or just bad.......

It’s not right that southerners are vilified and Northerners are exonerated , even though many had the same thoughts.

Now, my family during the war and reconstruction, lost pretty much everything. Do I get monetary repercussions from the north?

Maybe we Southerners should sue the ancestors of Sherman and Grant.

 

[peaygolf]

Maybe we Southerners should sue the ancestors of Sherman and Grant.

Count me in! I’ll walk to Washington.
( shouldn’t the Washington monument be torn down since he owned slaves? As well as renaming the capital?)

 

[NEO]

Outside of Reagan and Clinton I can honestly say Carter, Bush, Bush, Obama, Trump have all sucked as bad if not more than any president before them.

Buchanan blew major chunks but, let's be honest, any of the presidents I named are handling that situation just as poorly if not worse.

 

[CagleMtnVol]

He didn’t say it was a squeaker. It very well would have been if not for appeasing the abolitionists and the victory at Gettysburg.

Bingo up until Gettysburg coupled with the Confederates loss of Vicksburg the outcome of the war was starting to swing in the South's favor.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Most people only remember Nathan Bedford Forrest for his early ties to the KKK. Those people have never actually read up on the man, and how he eventually became a crusader for black rights.

This post marks some hypocrisy on your part. You could say that Nathan Bedford Forrest evolved, similar to Lincoln. I wouldn't argue the point. He clearly did change his tone over time. However, you were not willing to give Lincoln the same credit for that in some of your previous posts. You insisted that Lincoln believed in white supremacy... and implied that his change in tone near the end of his life didn't matter. I'm a big believer in the notion that people can change. You just aren't very consistent with who you want to give credit for changing.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Forest helped blacks by campaigning for education rights and voting rights, and admitted slavery was evil. I’d say that qualifies as evolving. Lincoln’s dislike towards blacks never evolved. Maybe it would have, had not been shot?

There are a couple of people in this forum who need to know history instead of saying the same incorrect crap others think

That is not true. Lincoln also advocated for black voting rights, and he argued for blacks to have citizenship. He also famously said that "all men are created equal" while referencing the Declaration of Independence. This is pure ignorance on your part. Some of this stuff is embarrassing to read.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Cherry Picking??
Racist or racially insensitive.....whole bunch a people have lost their careers for being racially insensitive, not necessarily racist. But it’s ok for Lincoln to say flat out that blacks should not even intermingle with whites, and even said they were so unworthy that they should be shipped back to Africa?

Yes he was “against” slavery as a whole, but don’t ever say he wasn’t racist.


Edit: Now.......if you want to pretend or say he “changed his attitude, and saw that all men are equal, fine. Now if that’s the case and he changed as a human, then you need to feel the exact same thing towards Nathan Bedford Forest. Do some research on NBF, and not a textbook from school. See what he did later in life.....and don’t give me the KKK crap. It wasn’t against blacks, it was trying to find a way to keep out Yankees from being elected in the south. It wasn’t supposed be a violent club and when it became violent, he and several others left the Klan.

This is also not true at all. From its inception in 1867 until Forrest ordered the society disbanded in 1869, the Ku Klux Klan was a white supremacist group that sought to suppress black voting rights through intimidation and violence. Forrest's influence in the KKK is often disputed, but his prominent role in that organization is consistent with his conduct during the Fort Pillow massacre in the Civil War.

This passage is from history.com:

"Union survivors' accounts, later supported by a federal investigation, concluded that African-American troops were massacred by Forrest's men after surrendering."

You are talking out of your butt. This is just one stupid post after another.

 

[peaygolf]

This is also not true at all. From its inception in 1867 until Forrest ordered the society disbanded in 1869, the Ku Klux Klan was a white supremacist group that sought to suppress black voting rights through intimidation and violence. Forrest's influence in the KKK is often disputed, but his prominent role in that organization is consistent with his conduct during the Fort Pillow massacre in the Civil War.

This passage is from history.com:

"Union survivors' accounts, later supported by a federal investigation, concluded that African-American troops were massacred by Forrest's men after surrendering."

You are talking out of your butt. This is just one stupid post after another.

It wasn’t supposed to be violent, that’s one reason they disbanded the Klan They did triy to suppress anyone who would vote for the northerners. His racist motives were still there at that time, as would Lincoln’s have been if not assassinated.
My main point in this entire time was that Lincoln had the same racial bias as did Forest before, during, and after the war (Lincoln’s death kept us from knowing exactly what he would have done.)
Never once have I said that he wasn’t ever racist, owned and traded slaves, or defended his actions a Fort Pillow (which is debatable.) Since he changed his racist views, he should at least be depicted as doing so and be acknowledged for doing so.
Isn’t that what “black lives matter” is trying to do? Get people to change their attitudes towards racism? In that sense alone, NBF should be commended........He changed

 

[peaygolf]

That is not true. Lincoln also advocated for black voting rights, and he argued for blacks to have citizenship. He also famously said that "all men are created equal" while referencing the Declaration of Independence. This is pure ignorance on your part. Some of this stuff is embarrassing to read.

Ok.... if both evolved, then leave NBF monuments up. If his come down due to racism, so should Lincoln’s.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Ok.... if both evolved, then leave NBF monuments up. If his come down due to racism, so should Lincoln’s.

NBF's offenses were considerably more egregious than anything that Lincoln ever did or said. I believe that Forrest did change his belief system on black people... and that is great. He became enlightened later in life, and he tried to redeem himself just like George Wallace did 100 years later. However, there is just too much to forgive with Forrest. Regardless of how you have tried to spin it in another post, the KKK was violent from their very inception with the purpose of oppressing blacks. These acts of violence were done under Forrest's leadership. The KKK will always be his lasting legacy.

 

[peaygolf]

NBF's offenses were considerably more egregious than anything that Lincoln ever did or said. I believe that Forrest did change his belief system on black people... and that is great. He became enlightened later in life, and he tried to redeem himself just like George Wallace did 100 years later. However, there is just too much to forgive with Forrest. Regardless of how you have tried to spin it in another post, the KKK was violent from their very inception with the purpose of oppressing blacks. These acts of violence were done under Forrest's leadership. The KKK will always be his lasting legacy.

Now we are “comparing” racist ideals? So for your “cancel culture” it’s ok to cherry pick and decide who is least racist than another?
Wow. “All racism should be ended.” “Well he wasn’t as racist as he was, so we’ll let him slide.” Which one is it?

Edit.......I’m dropping the conversation with you. You have every right to say how you feel, as do I. We are not going to change each other’s minds......and that’s ok. We can both be partially correct and partially be wrong......

 

[hog88]

Eh, I don't think the outcome of the war was ever really in doubt, I could be wrong there, but either way I don't care why. Results are results. He freed the slaves so he has my respect

But he didn’t free the slaves, that is a myth.