Rank the US Presidents

#379
#379
Tastylicks said:
Then why did they take the 1st shots at Fort Sumter?

and do you really think the United States Army shouldn't have fought back...? o_O
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Because Union forces refused to abandon it. South Carolina had seceded. They did not immediately bombard Fort Sumter upon secession. Thet ordered Union forces to withdraw. They weren't going to allow what had become a foreign poer upon their secession to maintain a military fort in Charleston Harbor. It wasn't until Lincoln attempted to resupply the fort rather than abandon it that Fort Sumter was fired upon.
 
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#382
#382
Weezer said:
Lincoln's "change" was politically motivated. The fact he believed only black war veterans deserved the right to vote demonstrates his views on race hadn't changed as much as you profess. He was always anti-slavery, but that doesn't mean he saw blacks as equal. And as for calls of citizenship, without the right to vote, would they have really been citizens? And this is ignoring that no women could vote, black or white. Lincoln did not advocate foe ALL black men to be given the right to vote. Only those that served, or those deemed "very intelligent". Lincoln's own words from his last public speech.

Abraham Lincoln's Last Speech (lincolnabraham.com)


Lincoln's thinking was progressive for his time, but it was not without racist overtones.
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... but the guy who founded the Ku Klux Klan is a swell guy. You are a joke.
 
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#386
#386
BowlBrother85 said:
... but the guy who founded the Ku Klux Klan is a swell guy. You are a joke.
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Never said he was "swell", only that he advocated for black rights by the end of his life. Again, a fact. It's not hard to research, but apparently, you'd rather remain ignorant.

Everyone keeps waiting for you to bring real facts to the table. Guess you just don't have them.
 
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#387
#387
Weezer said:
Not sure what's funny since it's a fact. You obviously haven't read as much about Lincoln as you purport.
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I'm laughing at your being an apologist for Nathan Bedford Forrest... but then taking Lincoln to task. Forrest's offenses to the black population are far more serious and lasting than anything Lincoln did or said. Lincoln's call for the rights of blacks was limited... it was also far more than any other president had advocated for up until then.
 
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#388
#388
hog88 said:
It's obvious the guy knows nothing about Lincoln or the period.
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I even provided a link to Lincoln's last speech where Lincoln clearly advocates for limited black suffrage. Apparently he doesn't believe Abraham Lincoln when it comes to Abraham Lincoln.
 
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#389
#389
Tastylicks said:
Then why did they take the 1st shots at Fort Sumter?

and do you really think the United States Army shouldn't have fought back...? o_O
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Maybe the federal forces shouldn't have stayed as unwelcome guests after SC seceded from the union? They were politely asked to surrender Ft Sumpter and declined before eviction proceedings began. Southerners have always been more deferential than yankees.
 
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#390
#390
Weezer said:
Never said he was "swell", only that he advocated for black rights by the end of his life. Again, a fact. It's not hard to research, but apparently, you'd rather remain ignorant.

Everyone keeps waiting for you to bring real facts to the table. Guess you just don't have them.
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That is a lie... I have acknowledged that Forrest became "enlightened" towards the end of his life. He clearly did try to redeem himself. He also frequently lied about his former association with the KKK. He lied because he thought that most people would find that to be unforgivable... and he was right. It is.
 
#391
#391
Weezer said:
I even provided a link to Lincoln's last speech where Lincoln clearly advocates for limited black suffrage. Apparently he doesn't believe Abraham Lincoln when it comes to Abraham Lincoln.
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Lincoln didn't even advocate for black suffrage in the northern states, just the former confederate states.
 
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#392
#392
BowlBrother85 said:
I'm laughing at your being an apologist for Nathan Bedford Forrest... but then taking Lincoln to task. Forrest's offenses to the black population are far more serious and lasting than anything Lincoln did or said. Lincoln's call for the rights of blacks was limited... it was also far more than any other president had advocated for up until then.
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A few things. first, NBF was never President of the United States. Second, I've never claimed either was morally superior over the other. I've stated easily confirmed facts that apparently you choose to ignore. Lastly, I agree that Lincoln did more for blacks than any previous President had, but he didn't do as much as is often claimed.
 
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#393
#393
AM64 said:
Maybe the federal forces shouldn't have stayed as unwelcome guests after SC seceded from the union? They were politely asked to surrender Ft Sumpter and declined before eviction proceedings began. Southerners have always been more deferential than yankees.
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They left all of the other installations in the south without incident but Lincoln wanted a war and kept them at Sumter.
 
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#394
#394
BowlBrother85 said:
That is a lie... I have acknowledged that Forrest became "enlightened" towards the end of his life. He clearly did try to redeem himself. He also frequently lied about his former association with the KKK. He lied because he thought that most people would find that to be unforgivable... and he was right. It is.
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It's actually not a lie.
 
#397
#397
BowlBrother85 said:
That is a lie... I have acknowledged that Forrest became "enlightened" towards the end of his life. He clearly did try to redeem himself. He also frequently lied about his former association with the KKK. He lied because he thought that most people would find that to be unforgivable... and he was right. It is.
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I know you're not a fan of Wiki as a source, but it's the quickest thing to access.

Nathan Bedford Forrest - Wikipedia
 
#398
#398
Weezer said:
It's actually not a lie.
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It was a lie for you to say that I had not pointed it out... I have pointed out through several posts that Forrest did change his attitude toward blacks near the end of his life. He tried to make amends for his involvement with the KKK. He clearly was ashamed of it, because he would usually lie about it when asked to explain it. My point is that is too much to forgive. The KKK is his lasting legacy and we should not be honoring him with statues.
 
#399
#399
AM64 said:
Maybe the federal forces shouldn't have stayed as unwelcome guests after SC seceded from the union? They were politely asked to surrender Ft Sumpter and declined before eviction proceedings began. Southerners have always been more deferential than yankees.
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Even if I thought like you do, that it was like a love relationship and could've ended in an amicable divorce, with the possibility of rekindled romance (I don't- i think that's incredibly naive), but even if I did, the United States Army should/will/always has retaliated when fired upon. To suggest otherwise is crazy.

Those people knew it was an act of war
 
#400
#400
Tastylicks said:
Even if I thought like you do, that it was like a love relationship and could've ended in an amicable divorce, with the possibility of rekindled romance (I don't- i think that's incredibly naive), but even if I did, the United States Army should/will/always has retaliated when fired upon. To suggest otherwise is crazy.

Those people knew it was an act of war
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LOL

No it doesn't/hasn't.
 
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